4 ms·

Whenever I hear a complain about airline experience, I am reminded by the fact that air travel has become cheaper every year. What used to cost $1800 for a flig

Whenever I hear a complain about airline experience, I am reminded by the fact that air travel has become cheaper every year. What used to cost $1800 for a flight from USA to New Delhi just 10-15 years ago is now less than $800. Consumers have shown that price is _the_ most important factor for choosing a flight. Unlike other industries, say buying a piece of furniture, consumers evaluate pros and cons of short term cost savings with long-term reliability and durability. In transportation, consumers are willing to sacrifice comfort for cost to the extent that Airlines are willing to go to extreme measures to cut costs. Consumers are asking for this whilst complaining about lack of comfort - what a insane dichotomy of entitlement and personal choice. Furthermore, I don't understand the fascination for traveling first/business class as if it is some kind of an absolute luxury. People can't stop talking about "Dude, you gotta fly Singapore Air business class, it is the best thing ever". You know what? My apartment has 900 sq foot of space, a full sized bed, music system, hot shower, balcony and a fully equipped kitchen. I would rather sit in my lounge chair enjoying some Bob Dylan than to sit in that Singapore Air business class seat trapped in a tube full of entitled humans. First or business class is a relative luxury, relative to the economy class. It is not some sort of an absolute experience of ground breaking luxury that leaves me in awe. If I wanted that, I would get a night at the Four Seasons for much less or go eat a fine meal or better yet, go do something that is truly awe-inspiring like stargazing. I am not saying that Business class sucks, I am saying that it has its place - i.e., precisely between take off and landing.

crooked-v 8y ago
> Consumers are asking for this whilst complaining about lack of comfort - what a insane dichotomy of entitlement and personal choice. I think the factor you're missing here is that it's extremely easy to comparison shop flights on price, but near-impossible to search based on criteria like "flights with seats that are comfortable for a 6'2" man" or "flights where there are power outlets under the seats".
bb88 8y ago
> Consumers are asking for this whilst complaining about lack of comfort - what a insane dichotomy of entitlement and personal choice. It feels insane, only because the market is inconsistent. The average family with children that flies a few times a year really do only care about cost. But the frequent flier cares more both about comfort than pure cost. For the wealthy, it's all about comfort. On many Delta flights the premium economy (Comfort Plus) is sold out 4 weeks in advance. People will pay the extra $100 for 4 more inches of legroom especially if the flight is longer than 4 hours.
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  And yet I've been on a Delta flight (PWM-JFK) where I got a Comfort Plus seat with my Basic Economy ticket. The outbound leg of that trip I watched as another guy got the same. The flight itself was over 80% full.
  - bb88 8y ago
    Is that because it's only an hour and a half flight if that?
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  I bought a United Economy Plus subscription, because I will never fly in regular (or, shudder, basic) economy. It's physically painful for me on most US domestic planes.
ken 8y ago
> Consumers have shown that price is _the_ most important factor for choosing a flight. Is that fair? Whenever I go to book a flight, none of the factors here are even available for my perusal. On any flight booking system I've ever used, I've never been able to sort possible flights by "inches of legroom" or "lavatory sink size". All I get is "Price", and a couple other factors which have nothing to do with the aircraft itself. Bruce Schneier estimated [1] that 500 deaths a year are caused by traffic accidents, from people who choose to drive rather than fly because of the hassle of 21st century airport security. Technically, these people aren't airline consumers, then, but they demonstrate that there's a large group of people in the market for transportation 'voting with their wallet' on comfort and convenience rather than price or speed or even personal safety. [1]: https://www.wired.com/2012/04/is-airport-security-killing-500-people-a-year/ https://www.wired.com/2012/04/is-airport-security-killing-50... Maybe a more accurate (and cynical) view would be: all flights today are a terrible experience, so we might as well spend as little money as possible on them. I might be convinced to fly again if some company would at least try to provide a decent experience.
- z2 8y ago
  Agree with what you're saying, but anecdotally, I just don't live enough in the moment to appreciate spending an extra couple thousand dollars on a flight for 10 hours or so of business class comfort. It's nice if a bathroom sink on the flight has infrared sensors, but it's just marginally nicer for the two times I use it. Not paying for business class, however--that sort of money saved is the difference between splurging or not on my next 5 years of phones and computers.
- mcpherrinm 8y ago
  You can choose Premium Economy if you want a more expensive and less awful experience, or Business. Yeah it's not directly choosing inches of legroom, but it is a reasonable proxy.
  - PaulHoule 8y ago
    Yeah but it's hard to choose a widebody instead of a narrowbody, a narrowbody that has a non-circular cross section that you can really stand up in (not a 737) or a flight with fewer stops. A big part of why the 737 experience is so bad is the lack of height, not the lack of legroom.
aj7 8y ago
No. The cheapifying has stabilized. At very best, prices are stable.
GuiA 8y ago
Business class is absolutely worth paying for. It’s certainly not for the luxurious appeal of it, but if you’re going to splurge on one thing, air travel is not a bad one to pick. I travel between the US, Europe, and Asia a couple times a year to visit close ones. I can pay $800 for a lengthy multi leg journey in a very cramped seat (I am quite tall), which will result in me being utterly miserable for 24-48 hours at the very least. Or I can pay a few times that (usually 3-5x), and take a single leg trip on a plane that will take less than 12 hours, all in utter comfort. I can lie down with a pillow and a blanket! Now, as a student I had no choice but to save up for months to afford the cheapest, most inconvenient tickets. But now I am at a stage of my life where I can afford business class a couple times a year, and it is a no brainer. I can’t think of any other service where paying more changes the quality of the service this drastically. A $30 meal can feed you just as well as a $150 one. A $20k car will get you to work as safely and efficiently as a $100k one. But a $800 SF-Tokyo will make you hate everything for a day or two, while a $4000 SF-Tokyo will be something you actually look forward to. You typically get to skip through security, get treated better by the staff, get to board faster, you don’t have to worry about where to put your bag, etc. So many quality of life improvements. (Standard disclaimer that I realize how privileged I am to be in the position that I am in - but I don’t think it’s too out of the norm on HN)
- spectramax 8y ago
  I think you’re an outlier even for HN. Not many people would pay $3200 extra for a 9 hour flight but I see your point. I travel extensively and always in Business class which usually gets upgraded to first class. But, even though I am hyper aware of the benefits, I personally cannot afford business class unless my company is covering it. For $3200, I can stay at a 5 star hotel in Tokyo for a week. However, if I can afford Business class - I would get it. My point wasn’t so much about Business class per se, it was venting out what people say about Business class as “absolute luxury”.
- dbmikus 8y ago
  I prefer paying extra to book a non-stop flight and then I just don't sleep the night beforehand and enter the plane, squeeze into my garbage economy seat and enter a semi-asleep fugue state for the duration of the flight. After 7 hours I basically lose track of time. 3x the price of a cross-pacific airline ticket to upgrade is a good amount of money that I'd rather just pocket. I'm 6'4", so I recognize how cramped economy is, and I have also been bumped up to business class once cause of a massive flight delay from Alaska back to the east coast, so I know what I'm missing. I won't knock anyone for flying in better comfort, but I think the suffering isn't too bad. Jet lag is going to get you anyways.

crooked-v 8y ago

> Consumers are asking for this whilst complaining about lack of comfort - what a insane dichotomy of entitlement and personal choice. I think the factor you're missing here is that it's extremely easy to comparison shop flights on price, but near-impossible to search based on criteria like "flights with seats that are comfortable for a 6'2" man" or "flights where there are power outlets under the seats".

bb88 8y ago

> Consumers are asking for this whilst complaining about lack of comfort - what a insane dichotomy of entitlement and personal choice. It feels insane, only because the market is inconsistent. The average family with children that flies a few times a year really do only care about cost. But the frequent flier cares more both about comfort than pure cost. For the wealthy, it's all about comfort. On many Delta flights the premium economy (Comfort Plus) is sold out 4 weeks in advance. People will pay the extra $100 for 4 more inches of legroom especially if the flight is longer than 4 hours.

inferiorhuman 8y ago
And yet I've been on a Delta flight (PWM-JFK) where I got a Comfort Plus seat with my Basic Economy ticket. The outbound leg of that trip I watched as another guy got the same. The flight itself was over 80% full.
- bb88 8y ago
  Is that because it's only an hour and a half flight if that?
vonmoltke 8y ago
I bought a United Economy Plus subscription, because I will never fly in regular (or, shudder, basic) economy. It's physically painful for me on most US domestic planes.

ken 8y ago

> Consumers have shown that price is _the_ most important factor for choosing a flight. Is that fair? Whenever I go to book a flight, none of the factors here are even available for my perusal. On any flight booking system I've ever used, I've never been able to sort possible flights by "inches of legroom" or "lavatory sink size". All I get is "Price", and a couple other factors which have nothing to do with the aircraft itself. Bruce Schneier estimated [1] that 500 deaths a year are caused by traffic accidents, from people who choose to drive rather than fly because of the hassle of 21st century airport security. Technically, these people aren't airline consumers, then, but they demonstrate that there's a large group of people in the market for transportation 'voting with their wallet' on comfort and convenience rather than price or speed or even personal safety. [1]: https://www.wired.com/2012/04/is-airport-security-killing-500-people-a-year/ https://www.wired.com/2012/04/is-airport-security-killing-50... Maybe a more accurate (and cynical) view would be: all flights today are a terrible experience, so we might as well spend as little money as possible on them. I might be convinced to fly again if some company would at least try to provide a decent experience.

z2 8y ago
Agree with what you're saying, but anecdotally, I just don't live enough in the moment to appreciate spending an extra couple thousand dollars on a flight for 10 hours or so of business class comfort. It's nice if a bathroom sink on the flight has infrared sensors, but it's just marginally nicer for the two times I use it. Not paying for business class, however--that sort of money saved is the difference between splurging or not on my next 5 years of phones and computers.
mcpherrinm 8y ago
You can choose Premium Economy if you want a more expensive and less awful experience, or Business. Yeah it's not directly choosing inches of legroom, but it is a reasonable proxy.
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  Yeah but it's hard to choose a widebody instead of a narrowbody, a narrowbody that has a non-circular cross section that you can really stand up in (not a 737) or a flight with fewer stops. A big part of why the 737 experience is so bad is the lack of height, not the lack of legroom.

aj7 8y ago

No. The cheapifying has stabilized. At very best, prices are stable.

GuiA 8y ago

Business class is absolutely worth paying for. It’s certainly not for the luxurious appeal of it, but if you’re going to splurge on one thing, air travel is not a bad one to pick. I travel between the US, Europe, and Asia a couple times a year to visit close ones. I can pay $800 for a lengthy multi leg journey in a very cramped seat (I am quite tall), which will result in me being utterly miserable for 24-48 hours at the very least. Or I can pay a few times that (usually 3-5x), and take a single leg trip on a plane that will take less than 12 hours, all in utter comfort. I can lie down with a pillow and a blanket! Now, as a student I had no choice but to save up for months to afford the cheapest, most inconvenient tickets. But now I am at a stage of my life where I can afford business class a couple times a year, and it is a no brainer. I can’t think of any other service where paying more changes the quality of the service this drastically. A $30 meal can feed you just as well as a $150 one. A $20k car will get you to work as safely and efficiently as a $100k one. But a $800 SF-Tokyo will make you hate everything for a day or two, while a $4000 SF-Tokyo will be something you actually look forward to. You typically get to skip through security, get treated better by the staff, get to board faster, you don’t have to worry about where to put your bag, etc. So many quality of life improvements. (Standard disclaimer that I realize how privileged I am to be in the position that I am in - but I don’t think it’s too out of the norm on HN)

spectramax 8y ago
I think you’re an outlier even for HN. Not many people would pay $3200 extra for a 9 hour flight but I see your point. I travel extensively and always in Business class which usually gets upgraded to first class. But, even though I am hyper aware of the benefits, I personally cannot afford business class unless my company is covering it. For $3200, I can stay at a 5 star hotel in Tokyo for a week. However, if I can afford Business class - I would get it. My point wasn’t so much about Business class per se, it was venting out what people say about Business class as “absolute luxury”.
dbmikus 8y ago
I prefer paying extra to book a non-stop flight and then I just don't sleep the night beforehand and enter the plane, squeeze into my garbage economy seat and enter a semi-asleep fugue state for the duration of the flight. After 7 hours I basically lose track of time. 3x the price of a cross-pacific airline ticket to upgrade is a good amount of money that I'd rather just pocket. I'm 6'4", so I recognize how cramped economy is, and I have also been bumped up to business class once cause of a massive flight delay from Alaska back to the east coast, so I know what I'm missing. I won't knock anyone for flying in better comfort, but I think the suffering isn't too bad. Jet lag is going to get you anyways.