4 ms·

Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable war

Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a request. [1] The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands. Given this behavior, I wonder what the Washington state ICE agents' conversations with the motel employees were like. This is not the only concerning incident with ICE in Washington state, recently ICE officers boarded a Greyhound bus and demanded a Portland-based comedian and grantee of legal US asylum come off the bus and forced him to show papers. [2] This one struck home for me because I had seen one of this comedian's performances (an act which includes discussion of race and nationalism issues) not far from where I live a week prior. The pattern of behavior from ICE is deeply upsetting. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist-used-legal-argument-stop-an-ice-arrest-he-says-others-should-do-same/?utm_term=.b1ddb0db433d https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist... [2] https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-stopped-by-border-patrol-says-he-felt-dehumanized.html https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-s...

gamblor956 8y ago
If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local consumer protection laws prohibiting such data release absent a countervailing legal requirement (such as a subpoena) requiring them to turn over such information.
- shawnz 8y ago
  How does a government agent ask you to break the law nicely? ICE could ask me anything as nicely as they want and I'd still feel compelled. They are in an immense position of power over Motel 6 here.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- bredren 8y ago
  Did you watch the video on the wapo article I linked to, and if so, do you think that officer was asking nicely when he spoke to that driver?
- Frondo 8y ago
  Do we know how ICE asked for these records? Because, from everything else I've ever seen about law enforcement making such requests, there's nothing nice about it, and there's everything coercive about it. And it's a scary kind of coercion because they do have the force of the state backing them up, in a way that plays on our built-in desire to please authority, built-in desire to not rock the boat, and built-in fear of consequences of the crushing weight of the state pummeling down on us. People generally regard law enforcement with a mix of fear and antipathy, because we know that, despite the checks and balances that exist, they can ruin lives and face no consequence for doing so. So when ICE comes and asks, however nicely they may actually phrase it (though I don't expect they said "please" and "thank you,"), they're also coming at these hoteliers with a very big stick. It's just shitty that the hoteliers did, in fact, cave and hand over this data.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Let's get this straight guys: If ICE had used any coecion at all to get the guest lists, Motel 6 wouldn't be in trouble with the state of Washington. Motel 6 is in trouble because they violated the law voluntarily. ICE deals with businesses differently than they deal with individuals. You're all imagining scenarios which did not happen.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Do we know how ICE asked for these records? We know that Motel 6 didn't claim their staff were misled into a belief that they were legally compelled, which—even if it wasn't a legal defense, for PR reasons—you'd expect them to do if it was true.
  - oasisbob 8y ago
    This isn't like it was just people caving to law enforcement in the moment, it was codified Motel 6 policy: > 4.3 ICE's usual practice was to come to Motel 6's reception desk and request the guest list from the receptionist. The receptionist would print out the guest list and give it to the ICE agent, along with a "law enforcement acknowledgment form" for the agent to sign, acknowledging receipt of the guest list. The ICE agent would review the guest list and identify individuals of interest to ICE.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  When you share your source maybe I'll be as sure as you are.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Oasisbob shared the civil complaint. It states quite clearly that there was no coercion on ICE's part...moreover that it was Motel 6 that actually directed its employees to just turn over the information. On a related note...the owner of the Motel 6 chain is a die-hard supporter of President Trump and has very conservative views of immigration, which supports the theory that Motel 6 was in the wrong here and ICE was merely taking advantage of their corporate generosity.
    - rdiddly 8y ago
      Aha, missed that, thanks.
- oasisbob 8y ago
  This is all from the original complaint: https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Another/News/Press_Releases/Complaint.Scan2.pdf https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Ano... https://www.atg.wa.gov/motel-6-settlement-claim-information https://www.atg.wa.gov/motel-6-settlement-claim-information
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Motel 6 trained its new employees to follow the practice described above to provide 24 guest lists to ICE agents upon request, without requiring the agents to show any reasonable 25 suspicion, probable cause, or search warrant for the guest registry information.
dontbenebby 8y ago
Which is why when someone claims a law compels you to do something, your default position should be to demand to speak to an attorney, invoke your right to remain silent, and refuse to interact further. (This means complying if they try to arrest you) As defense attorneys say: you can't beat the ride, but you can beat the rap.

gamblor956 8y ago

If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local consumer protection laws prohibiting such data release absent a countervailing legal requirement (such as a subpoena) requiring them to turn over such information.

shawnz 8y ago
How does a government agent ask you to break the law nicely? ICE could ask me anything as nicely as they want and I'd still feel compelled. They are in an immense position of power over Motel 6 here.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
bredren 8y ago
Did you watch the video on the wapo article I linked to, and if so, do you think that officer was asking nicely when he spoke to that driver?
Frondo 8y ago
Do we know how ICE asked for these records? Because, from everything else I've ever seen about law enforcement making such requests, there's nothing nice about it, and there's everything coercive about it. And it's a scary kind of coercion because they do have the force of the state backing them up, in a way that plays on our built-in desire to please authority, built-in desire to not rock the boat, and built-in fear of consequences of the crushing weight of the state pummeling down on us. People generally regard law enforcement with a mix of fear and antipathy, because we know that, despite the checks and balances that exist, they can ruin lives and face no consequence for doing so. So when ICE comes and asks, however nicely they may actually phrase it (though I don't expect they said "please" and "thank you,"), they're also coming at these hoteliers with a very big stick. It's just shitty that the hoteliers did, in fact, cave and hand over this data.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Let's get this straight guys: If ICE had used any coecion at all to get the guest lists, Motel 6 wouldn't be in trouble with the state of Washington. Motel 6 is in trouble because they violated the law voluntarily. ICE deals with businesses differently than they deal with individuals. You're all imagining scenarios which did not happen.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Do we know how ICE asked for these records? We know that Motel 6 didn't claim their staff were misled into a belief that they were legally compelled, which—even if it wasn't a legal defense, for PR reasons—you'd expect them to do if it was true.
- oasisbob 8y ago
  This isn't like it was just people caving to law enforcement in the moment, it was codified Motel 6 policy: > 4.3 ICE's usual practice was to come to Motel 6's reception desk and request the guest list from the receptionist. The receptionist would print out the guest list and give it to the ICE agent, along with a "law enforcement acknowledgment form" for the agent to sign, acknowledging receipt of the guest list. The ICE agent would review the guest list and identify individuals of interest to ICE.
rdiddly 8y ago
When you share your source maybe I'll be as sure as you are.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Oasisbob shared the civil complaint. It states quite clearly that there was no coercion on ICE's part...moreover that it was Motel 6 that actually directed its employees to just turn over the information. On a related note...the owner of the Motel 6 chain is a die-hard supporter of President Trump and has very conservative views of immigration, which supports the theory that Motel 6 was in the wrong here and ICE was merely taking advantage of their corporate generosity.
  - rdiddly 8y ago
    Aha, missed that, thanks.
oasisbob 8y ago
This is all from the original complaint: https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Another/News/Press_Releases/Complaint.Scan2.pdf https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Ano... https://www.atg.wa.gov/motel-6-settlement-claim-information https://www.atg.wa.gov/motel-6-settlement-claim-information
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Motel 6 trained its new employees to follow the practice described above to provide 24 guest lists to ICE agents upon request, without requiring the agents to show any reasonable 25 suspicion, probable cause, or search warrant for the guest registry information.

dontbenebby 8y ago

Which is why when someone claims a law compels you to do something, your default position should be to demand to speak to an attorney, invoke your right to remain silent, and refuse to interact further. (This means complying if they try to arrest you) As defense attorneys say: you can't beat the ride, but you can beat the rap.