5 ms·

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like t

by mey 8y ago

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

shawnz 8y ago
Perhaps it's not illegal by the letter of the law, but it certainly seems like a major injustice to me. Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection case.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here. If they were—which no account of this case I’ve seen has suggested—there is certainly an ethical issue, but not an issue that should negate Motel 6’s liability under the state law at issue here. In fact, if it's employees were not aware of the prohibition on turning the material over without a warrant, and this were susceptible to social engineering indicating that they should do so, that would seem squarely to be Motel 6’s responsibility.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - FakeComments 8y ago
      Something a lot of people dont understand: US state governments aren’t part of the US federal government, in any capacity — they’re independent states in a union. That’s why it’s strange here: ICE are agents of the federal government, who aren’t subject to state laws in the performance of their duty — Washington can’t stop ICE from doing their job, so instead they punish people who cooperate. An analogy might be that mom and dad are fighting, and now punishing the kids who listen to the other parent.
bredren 8y ago
Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a request. [1] The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands. Given this behavior, I wonder what the Washington state ICE agents' conversations with the motel employees were like. This is not the only concerning incident with ICE in Washington state, recently ICE officers boarded a Greyhound bus and demanded a Portland-based comedian and grantee of legal US asylum come off the bus and forced him to show papers. [2] This one struck home for me because I had seen one of this comedian's performances (an act which includes discussion of race and nationalism issues) not far from where I live a week prior. The pattern of behavior from ICE is deeply upsetting. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist-used-legal-argument-stop-an-ice-arrest-he-says-others-should-do-same/?utm_term=.b1ddb0db433d https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist... [2] https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-stopped-by-border-patrol-says-he-felt-dehumanized.html https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-s...
- gamblor956 8y ago
  If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local consumer protection laws prohibiting such data release absent a countervailing legal requirement (such as a subpoena) requiring them to turn over such information.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    How does a government agent ask you to break the law nicely? ICE could ask me anything as nicely as they want and I'd still feel compelled. They are in an immense position of power over Motel 6 here.
whoopdedo 8y ago
>It certainly wasn't ethical So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. More to the point, now that we've seen it happen once what has been done to prevent it from happening again?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. > Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. No, it's the fundamental distinction between what is illegal and what is unethical, which is a bit more than a “loophole”. It may be that it should be illegal for ICE to ask for certain information outside of the circumstances where it has a warrant, and this may be in that category. Or perhaps ICE should be legally prohibited from asking without a warrant when there is, as here, a state law prohibition on the person they ask giving them the information. Or maybe the law should just disband ICE. But none of that is the law now.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - shawnz 8y ago
    The parent is not claiming that it's illegal, just that it ought to be. I was the one who was suggesting (wrongly, apparently) that it might be illegal.
scarejunba 8y ago
Honestly it feels like it should be illegal. If a cop or a cop-simulacrum walks up to me and says "You're going to jail unless you give me this" I'm probably going to give them that. I don't want to go to jail and I know they'll cook something up about resisting arrest if I don't play along.
- Miner49er 8y ago
  If the state of Washington made it illegal it couldn't effect ICE though could it, since they're a part of the federal government?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Is it possible for states to make laws saying that cop-likes can't lie about things? And then for the state to sue the federal government if they violated that? Because the truth is that requiring a warrant won't do the trick. If the cop-like says he doesn't need a warrant I'm going to listen to him. I should always comply in the moment or "we'll do things the hard way". Then afterwards maybe I can sue.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - tdhoot 8y ago
    No, it couldn't affect ICE since the federal government has sovereign immunity and all federal officials enjoy qualified immunity in the course of conducting federal business.
- vkou 8y ago
  If a cop walks up to you, and says: "You're going to jail, unless you kill Bob," that's one thing. If a cop walks up to you, and says: "Could you do me a favor, and kill Bob for me?" - that's an entirely different thing. Motel 6 was not coerced into breaking the law. It voluntarily broke the law.

by mey 8y ago

shawnz 8y ago

Perhaps it's not illegal by the letter of the law, but it certainly seems like a major injustice to me. Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection case.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here. If they were—which no account of this case I’ve seen has suggested—there is certainly an ethical issue, but not an issue that should negate Motel 6’s liability under the state law at issue here. In fact, if it's employees were not aware of the prohibition on turning the material over without a warrant, and this were susceptible to social engineering indicating that they should do so, that would seem squarely to be Motel 6’s responsibility.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - FakeComments 8y ago
    Something a lot of people dont understand: US state governments aren’t part of the US federal government, in any capacity — they’re independent states in a union. That’s why it’s strange here: ICE are agents of the federal government, who aren’t subject to state laws in the performance of their duty — Washington can’t stop ICE from doing their job, so instead they punish people who cooperate. An analogy might be that mom and dad are fighting, and now punishing the kids who listen to the other parent.

bredren 8y ago

Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a request. [1] The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands. Given this behavior, I wonder what the Washington state ICE agents' conversations with the motel employees were like. This is not the only concerning incident with ICE in Washington state, recently ICE officers boarded a Greyhound bus and demanded a Portland-based comedian and grantee of legal US asylum come off the bus and forced him to show papers. [2] This one struck home for me because I had seen one of this comedian's performances (an act which includes discussion of race and nationalism issues) not far from where I live a week prior. The pattern of behavior from ICE is deeply upsetting. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist-used-legal-argument-stop-an-ice-arrest-he-says-others-should-do-same/?utm_term=.b1ddb0db433d https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/29/an-activist... [2] https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-stopped-by-border-patrol-says-he-felt-dehumanized.html https://www.oregonlive.com/today/2019/01/portland-comedian-s...

gamblor956 8y ago
If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local consumer protection laws prohibiting such data release absent a countervailing legal requirement (such as a subpoena) requiring them to turn over such information.
- shawnz 8y ago
  How does a government agent ask you to break the law nicely? ICE could ask me anything as nicely as they want and I'd still feel compelled. They are in an immense position of power over Motel 6 here.

whoopdedo 8y ago

>It certainly wasn't ethical So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. More to the point, now that we've seen it happen once what has been done to prevent it from happening again?

dragonwriter 8y ago
> So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. > Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. No, it's the fundamental distinction between what is illegal and what is unethical, which is a bit more than a “loophole”. It may be that it should be illegal for ICE to ask for certain information outside of the circumstances where it has a warrant, and this may be in that category. Or perhaps ICE should be legally prohibited from asking without a warrant when there is, as here, a state law prohibition on the person they ask giving them the information. Or maybe the law should just disband ICE. But none of that is the law now.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- shawnz 8y ago
  The parent is not claiming that it's illegal, just that it ought to be. I was the one who was suggesting (wrongly, apparently) that it might be illegal.

scarejunba 8y ago

Honestly it feels like it should be illegal. If a cop or a cop-simulacrum walks up to me and says "You're going to jail unless you give me this" I'm probably going to give them that. I don't want to go to jail and I know they'll cook something up about resisting arrest if I don't play along.

Miner49er 8y ago
If the state of Washington made it illegal it couldn't effect ICE though could it, since they're a part of the federal government?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Is it possible for states to make laws saying that cop-likes can't lie about things? And then for the state to sue the federal government if they violated that? Because the truth is that requiring a warrant won't do the trick. If the cop-like says he doesn't need a warrant I'm going to listen to him. I should always comply in the moment or "we'll do things the hard way". Then afterwards maybe I can sue.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- tdhoot 8y ago
  No, it couldn't affect ICE since the federal government has sovereign immunity and all federal officials enjoy qualified immunity in the course of conducting federal business.
vkou 8y ago
If a cop walks up to you, and says: "You're going to jail, unless you kill Bob," that's one thing. If a cop walks up to you, and says: "Could you do me a favor, and kill Bob for me?" - that's an entirely different thing. Motel 6 was not coerced into breaking the law. It voluntarily broke the law.