5 ms·

There was an illustrative article on this topic a few years ago [1]: "It’s not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me b

There was an illustrative article on this topic a few years ago [1]: "It’s not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn’t that I blow five bucks at Wendy’s. It’s that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ever will be. It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase. I will never have large pleasures to hold on to." (I really recommend reading the whole thing, for those that have never lived that situation long-term.) There's additionally a more recent study on the cognitive effects of long-term poverty [2], which essentially finds that poverty skews prioritization in financial decision-making and produces long-term decision-making stress which amounts to a massive ongoing cognitive load. Attitudes like ~ineedasername's are just fucking infuriating, especially when posted in response to an article in which the entire point was that saving money on coffee is not a habit which in isolation will make a huge difference in anyone's financial future. It's only about one step removed from victim blaming. Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee. They're poor because there's an economic system currently in place which is slurping as much wealth away from as many people as possible to feed it to just a few. [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-br... [2]: http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/article/how-poverty-changes-your-mind-set http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/artic...

DoreenMichele 8y ago
I imagine a lot of people saying "Just give up your $5 coffee and you, too, can be a millionaire someday!" are trying to be realistic without being wrist-slashingly depressing about life. But it amounts to left-handedly saying "The big problems in your life/ the world that make your $5 coffee An Issue for your budget? Yeah, honey, you can give up on solving those. Justice just ain't a thing."
benj111 8y ago
"entire point was that saving money on coffee is not a habit which in isolation will make a huge difference in anyone's financial future" As ineedausername said. It isn't meant literally, its about a mindset. Its about pointing out that mindlessly spending $5 everyday adds up to $xxx,xxx. If its still worth it for you then great, but make that decision consciously. I'm not even sure the advice is aimed at poor people, rather middle income people that spend their entire wage (plus) each month.
ZeroFries 8y ago
It's infuriating in the same way that "move more, eat less" is infuriating to obese people. It's infuriating because it doesn't pan out in practice for a lot of people trying. However, the advice is still sound to some degree, because it does work for the people who are actually able to follow it. Now, to blame it on the economic system is going too far IMO. Can you point to an economic system in practice with lower poverty rates than capitalism? Also, a well balanced capitalist system doesn't "slurp" wealth away, it increases it. Someone invents an axe, gets massively rich, and wealth inequality grows a bit. However, everyone who bought that axe is now better off for it. The total amount of wealth has increased in a non-zero-sum fashion.
- jowiar 8y ago
  Capitalism coupled with a tax and social service regime that hasn’t been torn apart over the past half century, for one. It’s not all or nothing, and all or nothing thinking by fanatics of “Jesus” and Capitalism has destroyed America.
- bigmanwalter 8y ago
  Everyone who buys the axe is better off for it, and everyone who sells wood at the market but doesn't own an axe is worse off for it.
whalabi 8y ago
I don't find his/her attitude infuriating. If you're on a wage where you're not sure if you'll ever be able to afford your own home, that $5 does add up. It was around 1% of my income recently. I want a house yesterday. I think the best solution to all this is what I ended up doing: buy a cheap but good espresso machine and enjoy delicious cheap coffee.
strken 8y ago
Blame and justice-seeking are just two levers to fix different kinds of poverty. They're not even the only levers. If someone spends all their money on rent because powerful interests are blocking new property development or because they're forced into rooming houses by a lack of rental history, then seeing them as a victim might be useful. If someone spends all their money on iphones and playstations and dinners and lattes and will stop doing it if they get negative peer feedback, then blaming them might be useful. If someone spends all their money on building a new house after a fire, then maybe neither is as helpful as integrating opt-out disaster insurance into land tax. Taking a hard line against any particular lever is almost always going to make you wrong some of the time, which means that some people are going to stay poor when they don't have to, which sucks for them.
sisu2019 8y ago
> Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee Impoverished people might be poor because they take everything literally and can't see the big picture though. Yes, frivolous spending absolutely has something to do with poverty. It's so clear and obvious and when I look at every example of a person that I know that could be called poor vs someone that is rich there is the same pattern: The poor ones HATE doing what's necessary, work, personal grooming, cleaning, eating healthy, working out whatever but they LOVE spending money they don't have on things they don't need and that will not make them happy. If you try to stop them from spending, they suffer. But if they spend it's the hedonistic treadmill: increase amount and GOTO 10. Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free. They get up and go work and if you stop them they suffer. The rich people I know HATE spending money. It causes them physical discomfort. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. > They're poor because there's an economic system currently in place which is slurping as much wealth away from as many people as possible to feed it to just a few. None of this is true. We are getting wealthier and wealthier from this magnificent system that lifted BILLIONS out of poverty the last 50 years. > small pleasures This is a perfect example of the poverty mindset: consume to be happy. There is enough pleasure to be had without spending a single dime, in fact, the most fulfilling activities will net you money directly or indirectly. It's possible to be content without spending money all the time. If you think that the happiness in your life comes down to small or large purchases you are already on the wrong path. Just turn back. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  "Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free." Would they work fast food for as many hours? How about in a call center where half the customers are angry and taking it out on you? How about if they couldn't afford the basics in life from the job? How about if they couldn't afford health care or food, so when working they are always tired? The rich people you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. They are more likely to be able to take vacations, spend money on things that make them happy (maybe it is their company/job, but it is still spending). They aren't worried that being late to pick up the kids will cost enough to make you have to eat less for the rest of the month, nor that a flat tire means you have to go without electricity. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset. This doesn't prove anything. It proves that poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning and unsurprisingly, when impovershed people suddenly get a lump sum of money, they fare poorly with the long-term planning. In contrast, rich folks have regular income. Even if you mess up one month, you have some income the next month. I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different. Especially if it had an amount of upfront windfall followed by the monthly salary.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I imagine a lot of people saying "Just give up your $5 coffee and you, too, can be a millionaire someday!" are trying to be realistic without being wrist-slashingly depressing about life. But it amounts to left-handedly saying "The big problems in your life/ the world that make your $5 coffee An Issue for your budget? Yeah, honey, you can give up on solving those. Justice just ain't a thing."

benj111 8y ago

"entire point was that saving money on coffee is not a habit which in isolation will make a huge difference in anyone's financial future" As ineedausername said. It isn't meant literally, its about a mindset. Its about pointing out that mindlessly spending $5 everyday adds up to $xxx,xxx. If its still worth it for you then great, but make that decision consciously. I'm not even sure the advice is aimed at poor people, rather middle income people that spend their entire wage (plus) each month.

ZeroFries 8y ago

It's infuriating in the same way that "move more, eat less" is infuriating to obese people. It's infuriating because it doesn't pan out in practice for a lot of people trying. However, the advice is still sound to some degree, because it does work for the people who are actually able to follow it. Now, to blame it on the economic system is going too far IMO. Can you point to an economic system in practice with lower poverty rates than capitalism? Also, a well balanced capitalist system doesn't "slurp" wealth away, it increases it. Someone invents an axe, gets massively rich, and wealth inequality grows a bit. However, everyone who bought that axe is now better off for it. The total amount of wealth has increased in a non-zero-sum fashion.

jowiar 8y ago
Capitalism coupled with a tax and social service regime that hasn’t been torn apart over the past half century, for one. It’s not all or nothing, and all or nothing thinking by fanatics of “Jesus” and Capitalism has destroyed America.
bigmanwalter 8y ago
Everyone who buys the axe is better off for it, and everyone who sells wood at the market but doesn't own an axe is worse off for it.

whalabi 8y ago

I don't find his/her attitude infuriating. If you're on a wage where you're not sure if you'll ever be able to afford your own home, that $5 does add up. It was around 1% of my income recently. I want a house yesterday. I think the best solution to all this is what I ended up doing: buy a cheap but good espresso machine and enjoy delicious cheap coffee.

strken 8y ago

Blame and justice-seeking are just two levers to fix different kinds of poverty. They're not even the only levers. If someone spends all their money on rent because powerful interests are blocking new property development or because they're forced into rooming houses by a lack of rental history, then seeing them as a victim might be useful. If someone spends all their money on iphones and playstations and dinners and lattes and will stop doing it if they get negative peer feedback, then blaming them might be useful. If someone spends all their money on building a new house after a fire, then maybe neither is as helpful as integrating opt-out disaster insurance into land tax. Taking a hard line against any particular lever is almost always going to make you wrong some of the time, which means that some people are going to stay poor when they don't have to, which sucks for them.

sisu2019 8y ago

> Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee Impoverished people might be poor because they take everything literally and can't see the big picture though. Yes, frivolous spending absolutely has something to do with poverty. It's so clear and obvious and when I look at every example of a person that I know that could be called poor vs someone that is rich there is the same pattern: The poor ones HATE doing what's necessary, work, personal grooming, cleaning, eating healthy, working out whatever but they LOVE spending money they don't have on things they don't need and that will not make them happy. If you try to stop them from spending, they suffer. But if they spend it's the hedonistic treadmill: increase amount and GOTO 10. Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free. They get up and go work and if you stop them they suffer. The rich people I know HATE spending money. It causes them physical discomfort. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. > They're poor because there's an economic system currently in place which is slurping as much wealth away from as many people as possible to feed it to just a few. None of this is true. We are getting wealthier and wealthier from this magnificent system that lifted BILLIONS out of poverty the last 50 years. > small pleasures This is a perfect example of the poverty mindset: consume to be happy. There is enough pleasure to be had without spending a single dime, in fact, the most fulfilling activities will net you money directly or indirectly. It's possible to be content without spending money all the time. If you think that the happiness in your life comes down to small or large purchases you are already on the wrong path. Just turn back. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
"Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free." Would they work fast food for as many hours? How about in a call center where half the customers are angry and taking it out on you? How about if they couldn't afford the basics in life from the job? How about if they couldn't afford health care or food, so when working they are always tired? The rich people you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. They are more likely to be able to take vacations, spend money on things that make them happy (maybe it is their company/job, but it is still spending). They aren't worried that being late to pick up the kids will cost enough to make you have to eat less for the rest of the month, nor that a flat tire means you have to go without electricity. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset. This doesn't prove anything. It proves that poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning and unsurprisingly, when impovershed people suddenly get a lump sum of money, they fare poorly with the long-term planning. In contrast, rich folks have regular income. Even if you mess up one month, you have some income the next month. I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different. Especially if it had an amount of upfront windfall followed by the monthly salary.