8 ms·

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what

by shawnz 8y ago

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

dboshardy 8y ago
Why not both?
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? It's generally not illegal for ICE (or government more generally) to request information without a warrant (not having a warrant or other compulsory basis just means people are not legally compelled to acquiesce to the request), and the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply to federal law enforcement agencies.
- gpvos 8y ago
  > the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply to federal law enforcement agencies. That baffles me. When a federal agent is in a state, they should be bound to the laws of that state. And additionally, it should be illegal for any government agent, federal, state, or local, to ask someone to do something illegal. How could that constitutionally be otherwise?
mey 8y ago
How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.
- shawnz 8y ago
  Perhaps it's not illegal by the letter of the law, but it certainly seems like a major injustice to me. Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection case.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      "ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here. If they were—which no account of this case I’ve seen has suggested—there is certainly an ethical issue, but not an issue that should negate Motel 6’s liability under the state law at issue here. In fact, if it's employees were not aware of the prohibition on turning the material over without a warrant, and this were susceptible to social engineering indicating that they should do so, that would seem squarely to be Motel 6’s responsibility.
      - deleted 8y ago
rhizome 8y ago
This is not the first time law enforcement has gone for motel records, nor even local cops being friendly with the night attendant. Motel 6 should be (or should have been) telling their employees that they aren't required to hand out any information without a court order or warrant.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  More than "aren't required", but under Washington state consumer data protection laws, "are prohibited from".
sonnyblarney 8y ago
" I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." No, crossing the border illegally is the 'root cause' - not ICE. ICE's shenanigans are an artifact of that. But yes, it seems weird that a private entity is in trouble for doing what a government agency 'required' of them. These grey areas really need to be sorted out, it seems the laws are still unclear. I think there are probably a ton of ways to sort the border out if there weren't so many extreme voices on all of this.
ancorevard 8y ago
"I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." ICE only enforce the laws that already exists. So only two possible parties are at fault here: 1. Congress, if the current laws are bad. 2. Parents, if they are in violation of the law.
- shawnz 8y ago
  Requesting Motel 6 to break the law is clearly far outside the scope of enforcing the laws that already exist.
- mikeash 8y ago
  If only that were so. There’s no law requiring ICE to target Hispanics, hassle people speaking Spanish in public, or hold US citizens for months. In fact, the law says they can’t. This doesn’t seem to stop them.
- Matticus_Rex 8y ago
  If you sign up to enforce evil laws, you're voluntarily choosing to do evil. Multiple parties can all be at fault at the same time.
  - shard972 8y ago
    How are border/immigration laws evil?
patrickg_zill 8y ago
The person who should ultimately be blamed is the person who is illegally in the US. Why blame the cops for the arrest of a criminal?
- cortesoft 8y ago
  So I assume you blame Rosa Parks for not sitting at the back of the bus? It was illegal to do what she did, so therefore she was a criminal. Not saying that has to be the case here, but just because something is against the law doesn't mean breaking it is morally bad.
  - lamarpye 8y ago
    Your comment seems to be saying that this is the case here. Otherwise, why invoke Rosa Parks if there is no connection. I am sure I can find a long list of murderers and rapists that ICE has deported from the country, does opposing ICE mean supporting murderers and rapists?
  - patrickg_zill 8y ago
    If you believe that illegal aliens are coming to the US for the express purpose of civil disobedience (I think that is a fair summary of what Rosa Parks was doing), please show evidence of this.
    - ihm 8y ago
      People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that? Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.
      - billner 8y ago
        Everyone in the world wants a better life. The reason for stopping it is the same reason all countries south of the US also have immigration laws.
fucking_tragedy 8y ago
> What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Motel 6 violated Washington law by giving information away without a warrant. ICE can ask nicely for data from anyone, but you only have to comply if they have a warrant or subpoena.

by shawnz 8y ago

dboshardy 8y ago

Why not both?

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? It's generally not illegal for ICE (or government more generally) to request information without a warrant (not having a warrant or other compulsory basis just means people are not legally compelled to acquiesce to the request), and the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply to federal law enforcement agencies.

gpvos 8y ago
> the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply to federal law enforcement agencies. That baffles me. When a federal agent is in a state, they should be bound to the laws of that state. And additionally, it should be illegal for any government agent, federal, state, or local, to ask someone to do something illegal. How could that constitutionally be otherwise?

mey 8y ago

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

shawnz 8y ago
Perhaps it's not illegal by the letter of the law, but it certainly seems like a major injustice to me. Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection case.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here. If they were—which no account of this case I’ve seen has suggested—there is certainly an ethical issue, but not an issue that should negate Motel 6’s liability under the state law at issue here. In fact, if it's employees were not aware of the prohibition on turning the material over without a warrant, and this were susceptible to social engineering indicating that they should do so, that would seem squarely to be Motel 6’s responsibility.
    - deleted 8y ago

rhizome 8y ago

This is not the first time law enforcement has gone for motel records, nor even local cops being friendly with the night attendant. Motel 6 should be (or should have been) telling their employees that they aren't required to hand out any information without a court order or warrant.

FireBeyond 8y ago
More than "aren't required", but under Washington state consumer data protection laws, "are prohibited from".

sonnyblarney 8y ago

" I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." No, crossing the border illegally is the 'root cause' - not ICE. ICE's shenanigans are an artifact of that. But yes, it seems weird that a private entity is in trouble for doing what a government agency 'required' of them. These grey areas really need to be sorted out, it seems the laws are still unclear. I think there are probably a ton of ways to sort the border out if there weren't so many extreme voices on all of this.

ancorevard 8y ago

"I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." ICE only enforce the laws that already exists. So only two possible parties are at fault here: 1. Congress, if the current laws are bad. 2. Parents, if they are in violation of the law.

shawnz 8y ago
Requesting Motel 6 to break the law is clearly far outside the scope of enforcing the laws that already exist.
mikeash 8y ago
If only that were so. There’s no law requiring ICE to target Hispanics, hassle people speaking Spanish in public, or hold US citizens for months. In fact, the law says they can’t. This doesn’t seem to stop them.
Matticus_Rex 8y ago
If you sign up to enforce evil laws, you're voluntarily choosing to do evil. Multiple parties can all be at fault at the same time.
- shard972 8y ago
  How are border/immigration laws evil?

patrickg_zill 8y ago

The person who should ultimately be blamed is the person who is illegally in the US. Why blame the cops for the arrest of a criminal?

cortesoft 8y ago
So I assume you blame Rosa Parks for not sitting at the back of the bus? It was illegal to do what she did, so therefore she was a criminal. Not saying that has to be the case here, but just because something is against the law doesn't mean breaking it is morally bad.
- lamarpye 8y ago
  Your comment seems to be saying that this is the case here. Otherwise, why invoke Rosa Parks if there is no connection. I am sure I can find a long list of murderers and rapists that ICE has deported from the country, does opposing ICE mean supporting murderers and rapists?
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  If you believe that illegal aliens are coming to the US for the express purpose of civil disobedience (I think that is a fair summary of what Rosa Parks was doing), please show evidence of this.
  - ihm 8y ago
    People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that? Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.
    - billner 8y ago
      Everyone in the world wants a better life. The reason for stopping it is the same reason all countries south of the US also have immigration laws.

fucking_tragedy 8y ago

> What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Motel 6 violated Washington law by giving information away without a warrant. ICE can ask nicely for data from anyone, but you only have to comply if they have a warrant or subpoena.