3 ms·

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should g

by pslam 8y ago

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with long hours and low benefits, taking full advantage of the cool-factor to entangle them. As anyone who has the slightest empathy and has read anything in the news cycle in the last few years would know, people caught in this situation are often unaware they're being abused, blame themselves, and don't realize there is better elsewhere. If you're one of the people who are, right now reading this, thinking "That's a load of BS these people are idiots and they deserve what they get", then I implore that you think again and realize you are essentially blaming the victim. That's almost never the right side to be on. What we need to do is expose these companies for what they really. Put all these things out in the open and air them for all to see. Perhaps at some point we can have all the major studios unionized, and perhaps once their internal cultures become less toxic, their external one will likewise clear up a bit. Here's hoping.

ahaferburg 8y ago
Unionization is never going to happen, and won't have much benefit. Excessive overtime and crunch need to be outlawed. It's not a matter of whether or not it's paid, beyond a certain threshold it's a question of health. Nothing will change until people start suing. If companies can just abuse and then terminate people once their lives are ruined, they will continue to do so.
- ketzo 8y ago
  Just out of curiosity, which people (or perhaps, organizations) do you think first pushed for overtime laws in the U.S.?
- unethical_ban 8y ago
  Collective bargaining will never happen, but outlawing overtime will?
gridlockd 8y ago
Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. The idea that these people are entrapped is a bunch of nonsense. We're not talking about people that have zero alternatives besides scraping at the bottom of a barrel. We're talking about people that are already well-paid and would be even higher paid if only they decided to switch industries. They can switch jobs and they do switch jobs. That's simply the truth. It's not victim blaming. The allegation of victim blaming itself is dishonest. These people aren't victims. These people have jobs they don't like. Welcome to adulthood, comrades!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  >>Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. People's behaviors are informed by their upbringing and circumstances, most of which they have no control over. Studies show that people are deeply affected by those around them, and their role models (whether those be friends or family members) have a deep impact on the paths they take in life. For example, arranging regular interactions between kids in school and young, successful white collar professionals drastically increases the likelihood that those kids end up picking similar careers. In contrast, if they are surrounded by high crime and poverty, they tend to not do so well. This is why one should not rush to judgment when discussing these issues: things are never as simple as "well, they made the wrong decisions in life." Even if the decisions were indeed wrong in retrospect, at the time they might have looked like (or actually have been) the right ones, or simply the best ones available.
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    > No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Of course not. It's still their decision. It's their responsibility what to do with their lives. It's not like we tell young children that they absolutely must become game developers or that it's the greatest job in the world. It's rather the contrary. It doesn't make you a victim. Even if we were to agree that this makes you a victim, who the hell cares? There's millions of workers that work far tougher jobs at lousy pay, with no upward mobility. Let's start there.
Waterluvian 8y ago
Enh... They're not victims. They're just people who picked a profession that doesn't have great terms. By changing professions they may get better terms. That might also change the supply in the industry and help others too. One lucky thing about game dev is that your skills do transfer. Whether to graphic design or programming or marketing or whatnot. It's not like they got a gamedev license and are locked in.
- SamuelAdams 8y ago
  Exactly. A victim can't get out of whatever situation they are in. Each employee probably signed an "at-will" employment agreement, so they can leave at any time, for any reason.
  - WhompingWindows 8y ago
    I take issue with your definition of a "victim" as someone who can't get out of a situation they are in. If we are speaking counter-factually about what any victim of an assault could have done, let's look to the "why didn't they leave?" question to those in abusive intimate relationships. Surely, you're not claiming it's all on the abused spouse, as they could have left at any time? Could they really have, when their emotional, financial, and personal livelihood is wrapped up in this relationship? Could they break their psychological barricades and escape? Some can, some do, and some can't. It just comes across as a very callous definition, the 22 year old brain is much more idealistic and hopeful, and far less experienced/knowledgeable about workplace rights/conditions. Surely, you see the difficulty of these naive, youhtful video game makers' situations, who get exploited with unpaid overtime, unrealistic demands, and being cut from their company with little cause? My point is 100% of the blame can not fall on an employee here, there is agency on both sides. Companies can be better to their workers, and workers can save money more diligently, improve their skills, and apply around for other jobs to improve their situation.
anm89 8y ago
I never understand this kind of black and white thinking. So I either have to believe that people are total victims of circumstance with no control over their own situations or my opinions are "appalling"? The reality is that there are obviously unfair elements to how these industries are operating and it would be desirable to most people to figure out how to improve that situation. It's also a reality that at the end of the day people have a big incentive to understand the big choices they are making in their lives regardless of subjective fairness. Regardless of your moral position it certainly seems they have paid a price for entering the industry and they entered the industry on their own free will(I doubt many people are being coerced into video game dev through threats of violence, blackmail or extortion). Like literally everything else, the truth lies in the grey area and it's not "appalling" to have other opinions. The idea of being so unable to believe that there may be validity to an opinion you don't like is a whole lot more appalling in my opinion.
Agentlien 8y ago
I agree with this and think there's been a really good effort lately to shine a light at the problems. A good example are the articles by Jason Schreier of Kotaku. However, I'd also like to add my own data point. I'm someone who grew up dreaming about developing games and taught myself programming as a kid, with the idea of spending my days as a game developer. However, after having heard so much bad stuff about the game industry and then experienced it first hand when doing a summer job at Starbreeze, I decided to stay away from the game industry after I got my Master's. Nearly four years later, I ended up switching jobs and entering the video game industry (at an EA studio). I've been there for four years, now. Every week I actively turn down headhunters trying to recruit me for all manner of jobs outside of game development. A lot of things could, and should, be better in game development. But all in all, I still love making games and am much happier with my day to day job now than before becoming a game dev.

by pslam 8y ago

ahaferburg 8y ago

Unionization is never going to happen, and won't have much benefit. Excessive overtime and crunch need to be outlawed. It's not a matter of whether or not it's paid, beyond a certain threshold it's a question of health. Nothing will change until people start suing. If companies can just abuse and then terminate people once their lives are ruined, they will continue to do so.

ketzo 8y ago
Just out of curiosity, which people (or perhaps, organizations) do you think first pushed for overtime laws in the U.S.?
unethical_ban 8y ago
Collective bargaining will never happen, but outlawing overtime will?

gridlockd 8y ago

Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. The idea that these people are entrapped is a bunch of nonsense. We're not talking about people that have zero alternatives besides scraping at the bottom of a barrel. We're talking about people that are already well-paid and would be even higher paid if only they decided to switch industries. They can switch jobs and they do switch jobs. That's simply the truth. It's not victim blaming. The allegation of victim blaming itself is dishonest. These people aren't victims. These people have jobs they don't like. Welcome to adulthood, comrades!

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
enraged_camel 8y ago
>>Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. People's behaviors are informed by their upbringing and circumstances, most of which they have no control over. Studies show that people are deeply affected by those around them, and their role models (whether those be friends or family members) have a deep impact on the paths they take in life. For example, arranging regular interactions between kids in school and young, successful white collar professionals drastically increases the likelihood that those kids end up picking similar careers. In contrast, if they are surrounded by high crime and poverty, they tend to not do so well. This is why one should not rush to judgment when discussing these issues: things are never as simple as "well, they made the wrong decisions in life." Even if the decisions were indeed wrong in retrospect, at the time they might have looked like (or actually have been) the right ones, or simply the best ones available.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  > No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Of course not. It's still their decision. It's their responsibility what to do with their lives. It's not like we tell young children that they absolutely must become game developers or that it's the greatest job in the world. It's rather the contrary. It doesn't make you a victim. Even if we were to agree that this makes you a victim, who the hell cares? There's millions of workers that work far tougher jobs at lousy pay, with no upward mobility. Let's start there.

Waterluvian 8y ago

Enh... They're not victims. They're just people who picked a profession that doesn't have great terms. By changing professions they may get better terms. That might also change the supply in the industry and help others too. One lucky thing about game dev is that your skills do transfer. Whether to graphic design or programming or marketing or whatnot. It's not like they got a gamedev license and are locked in.

SamuelAdams 8y ago
Exactly. A victim can't get out of whatever situation they are in. Each employee probably signed an "at-will" employment agreement, so they can leave at any time, for any reason.
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  I take issue with your definition of a "victim" as someone who can't get out of a situation they are in. If we are speaking counter-factually about what any victim of an assault could have done, let's look to the "why didn't they leave?" question to those in abusive intimate relationships. Surely, you're not claiming it's all on the abused spouse, as they could have left at any time? Could they really have, when their emotional, financial, and personal livelihood is wrapped up in this relationship? Could they break their psychological barricades and escape? Some can, some do, and some can't. It just comes across as a very callous definition, the 22 year old brain is much more idealistic and hopeful, and far less experienced/knowledgeable about workplace rights/conditions. Surely, you see the difficulty of these naive, youhtful video game makers' situations, who get exploited with unpaid overtime, unrealistic demands, and being cut from their company with little cause? My point is 100% of the blame can not fall on an employee here, there is agency on both sides. Companies can be better to their workers, and workers can save money more diligently, improve their skills, and apply around for other jobs to improve their situation.

anm89 8y ago

I never understand this kind of black and white thinking. So I either have to believe that people are total victims of circumstance with no control over their own situations or my opinions are "appalling"? The reality is that there are obviously unfair elements to how these industries are operating and it would be desirable to most people to figure out how to improve that situation. It's also a reality that at the end of the day people have a big incentive to understand the big choices they are making in their lives regardless of subjective fairness. Regardless of your moral position it certainly seems they have paid a price for entering the industry and they entered the industry on their own free will(I doubt many people are being coerced into video game dev through threats of violence, blackmail or extortion). Like literally everything else, the truth lies in the grey area and it's not "appalling" to have other opinions. The idea of being so unable to believe that there may be validity to an opinion you don't like is a whole lot more appalling in my opinion.

Agentlien 8y ago

I agree with this and think there's been a really good effort lately to shine a light at the problems. A good example are the articles by Jason Schreier of Kotaku. However, I'd also like to add my own data point. I'm someone who grew up dreaming about developing games and taught myself programming as a kid, with the idea of spending my days as a game developer. However, after having heard so much bad stuff about the game industry and then experienced it first hand when doing a summer job at Starbreeze, I decided to stay away from the game industry after I got my Master's. Nearly four years later, I ended up switching jobs and entering the video game industry (at an EA studio). I've been there for four years, now. Every week I actively turn down headhunters trying to recruit me for all manner of jobs outside of game development. A lot of things could, and should, be better in game development. But all in all, I still love making games and am much happier with my day to day job now than before becoming a game dev.