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I’d agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that Apple blocks Spotify from offering its own subscription link in the app. By forcing businesses on the App Sto

I’d agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that Apple blocks Spotify from offering its own subscription link in the app. By forcing businesses on the App Store to choose between Apple’s in-app purchase system for a 30% cut and using an external payment processor that they are forbidden from linking to (or even referencing!) in the app, Apple retains a substantial, anti-competitive advantage over anyone operating on its platform.

thought_alarm 8y ago
Apple's cut on subscriptions is 15%, not 30%.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  spotify is charged 30%. https://timetoplayfair.com/facts/ https://timetoplayfair.com/facts/
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    I find this to be pretty elucidating on the situation of Apple/Spotify. I'll admit Warren's suggestion had me raising a bit of an eyebrow but taking the time to understand Spotify's position a bit definitely gave me some clarity and I'm certainly less incredulous than I was before. Given the debate at hand, this link is definitely worth a read.
  - jpincheira 8y ago
    This somehow will have to change. The top grossing iOS app (Tinder.app) somehow is not really complaining about this though, but that's because most their revenue comes from the iOS in app purchases.
    - nikofeyn 8y ago
      apple doesn’t have a competing tinder app. apple forced the 30% upon spotify, causing a price increase for spotify, but then apple released apple music at spotify’s old price, undercutting them.
      - votepaunchy 8y ago
        Again, subscriptions are 15% after the first year. Spotify is acting quite disingenuously in their claim.
        nikofeyn 8y ago
        that isn't entirely clear to me. https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17764424/netflix-feature-bypass-apples-app-store-fees https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17764424/netflix-feature-... this article implies that no, it is indeed 30% for any new user, at least for netflix, but then that matches up with what spotify claims. spotify also claims that apple changes what policy applies to each company. it does mention the second year reduction, but that seems to be for other apps? i think it's at least clear that apple makes it a little unclear what they exactly do. i have heard from more than one app developer (from big companies) complain about apple's arbitrary app store processes.
      - Svoka 8y ago
        Apple has premium only streaming service. No surprise it's better than freemium Spotify. Reportedly from what I googled Spotify has about third of active users paying any subscription fee, while it's 100% for Apple.
  - AimForTheBushes 8y ago
    Which decreases to 15% after the first year.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Spotify hasn’t allowed in app purchases of subscriptions for years.
  - Svoka 8y ago
    I love how they're comparing Spotify's 10$ vs Apple Music 10$ subscription. Completely forgetting that Apple Music is premium only service, while Spotify' minority of paying customers carry majority of freeloaders. Very "fair" comparison. (I know that Spotify have ads, but ad revenue is significantly less than 10$/m)
threeseed 8y ago
You're missing the point. It's a 30% cut for using Apple's distribution channel. And no Apple doesn't let app developers use the channel whilst telling their users how to bypass the 30% cut. Just like I can't go to any retail store today and on any of the clothes or boxes find a giant sticker that says "buy this product on our website for 20% cheaper". No retailer would tolerate that.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  It isn’t really a 30% cut because you can buy iTunes cards at pretty significant discounts, up to 25%, which comes out of that cut.
  - ac29 8y ago
    Can you actually get iTunes gift cards reliably for 25% off? Even the dodgy ones on eBay seem to be 10% off max, and I'm fairly sure those are primarily used for money laundering and/or credit card fraud.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Can you actually get iTunes gift cards reliably for 25% off? Yes, but like with any other purchase, you have to get it from a reputable retailer. I usually load up at brick-and-mortar places on Black Friday weekend and then use them the rest of the year.
- FlyingAvatar 8y ago
  I don't think this is a completely fair analogy. You'd have to add that it's more like you own a car that will only take you to that one store.
  - millstone 8y ago
    You can visit spotify.com on an iPhone though.
  - cannonedhamster 8y ago
prklmn 8y ago
I think this is similar to grocery store brands. Do you think that grocery stores should not be allowed to charge name brands for shelf space because they are competing against store owned private label brands?
- belltaco 8y ago
  I regularly shop at three different grocery chain stores. It's way easier for customers to switch between them compared to being locked into the Apple app store.
  - millstone 8y ago
    Nobody is being forced to subscribe to Spotify through the App Store. It's very easy to visit spotify.com and subscribe to Spotify Premium.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      >Nobody is being forced to use Internet Explorer through Windows. It's very easy to visit Netscape.com and download Netscape Navigator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
      - microtherion 8y ago
        At a time when Windows had something like a 90% desktop OS market share. iOS never had more than 30% mobile market share.
        xbmcuser 8y ago
        100% of iPhone users use iOS doesn't matter what the total smartphone use percentage is. It was the same when railway Barron's started capturing the other markets when they owned the railways each railway barron owned their own track and people had alternate routes
threatofrain 8y ago
Isn’t this more soft handed than exclusivity deals (which is really a kind of non-compete)? And people seem quite okay with those, even though such deals smells like the product of extremely lopsided power. I see Apple as a plaza owner who opens up a few of their own shops in that plaza. Or Safeway selling some store “generics” branded by them.
scarface74 8y ago
Spotify doesn’t allow in app subscriptions - so it’s not paying the 30% cut. Should we also stop Google from surfacing reviews, hotel reservations, etc before competitors since it doesn’t have to pay itself for top placement? Should we stop console makers from also being publishers since they don’t have to pay themselves a licensing fee - yes physicsl media from third parties have to pay a licensing fee. Should we stop physicsl distributors from having store brands?

thought_alarm 8y ago

Apple's cut on subscriptions is 15%, not 30%.

nikofeyn 8y ago
spotify is charged 30%. https://timetoplayfair.com/facts/ https://timetoplayfair.com/facts/
- dvtrn 8y ago
  I find this to be pretty elucidating on the situation of Apple/Spotify. I'll admit Warren's suggestion had me raising a bit of an eyebrow but taking the time to understand Spotify's position a bit definitely gave me some clarity and I'm certainly less incredulous than I was before. Given the debate at hand, this link is definitely worth a read.
- jpincheira 8y ago
  This somehow will have to change. The top grossing iOS app (Tinder.app) somehow is not really complaining about this though, but that's because most their revenue comes from the iOS in app purchases.
  - nikofeyn 8y ago
    apple doesn’t have a competing tinder app. apple forced the 30% upon spotify, causing a price increase for spotify, but then apple released apple music at spotify’s old price, undercutting them.
    - votepaunchy 8y ago
      Again, subscriptions are 15% after the first year. Spotify is acting quite disingenuously in their claim.
      - nikofeyn 8y ago
        that isn't entirely clear to me. https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17764424/netflix-feature-bypass-apples-app-store-fees https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/21/17764424/netflix-feature-... this article implies that no, it is indeed 30% for any new user, at least for netflix, but then that matches up with what spotify claims. spotify also claims that apple changes what policy applies to each company. it does mention the second year reduction, but that seems to be for other apps? i think it's at least clear that apple makes it a little unclear what they exactly do. i have heard from more than one app developer (from big companies) complain about apple's arbitrary app store processes.
    - Svoka 8y ago
      Apple has premium only streaming service. No surprise it's better than freemium Spotify. Reportedly from what I googled Spotify has about third of active users paying any subscription fee, while it's 100% for Apple.
- AimForTheBushes 8y ago
  Which decreases to 15% after the first year.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Spotify hasn’t allowed in app purchases of subscriptions for years.
- Svoka 8y ago
  I love how they're comparing Spotify's 10$ vs Apple Music 10$ subscription. Completely forgetting that Apple Music is premium only service, while Spotify' minority of paying customers carry majority of freeloaders. Very "fair" comparison. (I know that Spotify have ads, but ad revenue is significantly less than 10$/m)

threeseed 8y ago

You're missing the point. It's a 30% cut for using Apple's distribution channel. And no Apple doesn't let app developers use the channel whilst telling their users how to bypass the 30% cut. Just like I can't go to any retail store today and on any of the clothes or boxes find a giant sticker that says "buy this product on our website for 20% cheaper". No retailer would tolerate that.

tinus_hn 8y ago
It isn’t really a 30% cut because you can buy iTunes cards at pretty significant discounts, up to 25%, which comes out of that cut.
- ac29 8y ago
  Can you actually get iTunes gift cards reliably for 25% off? Even the dodgy ones on eBay seem to be 10% off max, and I'm fairly sure those are primarily used for money laundering and/or credit card fraud.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Can you actually get iTunes gift cards reliably for 25% off? Yes, but like with any other purchase, you have to get it from a reputable retailer. I usually load up at brick-and-mortar places on Black Friday weekend and then use them the rest of the year.
FlyingAvatar 8y ago
I don't think this is a completely fair analogy. You'd have to add that it's more like you own a car that will only take you to that one store.
- millstone 8y ago
  You can visit spotify.com on an iPhone though.
- cannonedhamster 8y ago

prklmn 8y ago

I think this is similar to grocery store brands. Do you think that grocery stores should not be allowed to charge name brands for shelf space because they are competing against store owned private label brands?

belltaco 8y ago
I regularly shop at three different grocery chain stores. It's way easier for customers to switch between them compared to being locked into the Apple app store.
- millstone 8y ago
  Nobody is being forced to subscribe to Spotify through the App Store. It's very easy to visit spotify.com and subscribe to Spotify Premium.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    >Nobody is being forced to use Internet Explorer through Windows. It's very easy to visit Netscape.com and download Netscape Navigator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
    - microtherion 8y ago
      At a time when Windows had something like a 90% desktop OS market share. iOS never had more than 30% mobile market share.
      - xbmcuser 8y ago
        100% of iPhone users use iOS doesn't matter what the total smartphone use percentage is. It was the same when railway Barron's started capturing the other markets when they owned the railways each railway barron owned their own track and people had alternate routes

threatofrain 8y ago

Isn’t this more soft handed than exclusivity deals (which is really a kind of non-compete)? And people seem quite okay with those, even though such deals smells like the product of extremely lopsided power. I see Apple as a plaza owner who opens up a few of their own shops in that plaza. Or Safeway selling some store “generics” branded by them.

scarface74 8y ago

Spotify doesn’t allow in app subscriptions - so it’s not paying the 30% cut. Should we also stop Google from surfacing reviews, hotel reservations, etc before competitors since it doesn’t have to pay itself for top placement? Should we stop console makers from also being publishers since they don’t have to pay themselves a licensing fee - yes physicsl media from third parties have to pay a licensing fee. Should we stop physicsl distributors from having store brands?