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For an example of unionization and certification issues that deal with this, look at the medical field. There are many more people that want to be doctors than

For an example of unionization and certification issues that deal with this, look at the medical field. There are many more people that want to be doctors than there are spots in med schools (US-centric view point here). The AMA artificially keeps the enrollment numbers at med-schools low, so as to drive demand for doctors in general and therefore, increase their wages. The AMA is well aware of the current shortage of pediatricians and over-abundance of cardiologists. Though the employment dynamics of literal brain-surgeons are a bit different teachers or gig-bassists, they do largely follow the same patterns in terms of pay. Granted, most MDs in the US really are very good at their jobs, so I'm not all that put-off when they literally save the lives of my loved ones (money has no value there). Compare this to nurses and their employment dynamics. Phlebotomists aren't paid badly, but they aren't paid well either. Their shifts are hectic, long, and erratic. Hospice nursing in the US is nearly criminal in it's underpayment and overwork, especially for the emotional labor that goes into it. The reason here is that there is a vast oversupply of people that want to be nurses and in medicine. The core issue with both cases is that such jobs provide meaning to people that want to do those jobs. They trade off different things for that value. MDs trade their 20s and a lottery ticket into med school for that meaning in their lives, nurses trade comfort and pay for that meaning in their lives. MDs have what amounts to a very strong union, nurses (generally, but there are many exceptions in the US) do not have as strong of a union. Generally, any profession that provides meaning in the life of a human will either be very underpaid/overworked OR will have a very strong union/credentialing system to pass before becoming employed. We all regress to the same level of misery.

lurquer 8y ago
A more accurate term for what is 'required' is a Guild. Medicine and Law are the last two examples in the US. It is a crime to practice law or medicine without a license. And, for the most part, the amount of licenses dispensed each year is left up to the practitioners' professional association. In short, you'd want to make it illegal to program for pay (or to distribute free software) without being a member of the guild. That will never happen -- thank goodness. But, it is the model that allowed the economy to chug along through the Middle Ages.
- Balgair 8y ago
  Another example is the Professional Engineer (PE). Bridges don't just get designed and built. A PE is usually required to sign off that these structures are safe and usable. Little Fischer-Price playhouses aren't the same as the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Though not a guild in all but name, the PE acts just the same. In fact, there is guild-like behavior in a lot of professions, come to think of it.
  - lurquer 8y ago
    There are several that are guild-like. For instance, in my state it is illegal to hold yourself out as providing 'accounting services' without being a CPA. Likewise, it is illegal to assist in the sale/purchase of real estate for a fee without being a broker/realtor (or a lawyer). It's undoubtedly the same for engineering. However, there may be a subtle difference... A non-accountant can certainly help with your books so long as they don't hold themselves out as an "accountant." And, a non-realtor can certainly help you find a house, so long as they aren't paid contingency related to the ultimate transaction. I think -- and I may be wrong -- a non-engineer can charge to design a treehouse for your... so long as he doesn't hold himself out as an engineer. (Obviously, when it comes to roads, permit-related structures, etc., a governmental agency may require a P.E.... but, that's a different set of requirements.) But, one may not practice medicine EVEN IF one refrains from holding himself out as a doctor. And, one may not dispense legal advice EVEN IF it is clear to all involved that the person is not a lawyer.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
largecoredump 8y ago
IAAD. Most of these points on medicine are either outdated or plain inaccurate. 1. The AMA had tight control on med schools 50-100 years ago. These days a mediocre score on the MCAT and a desire for $300k+ in debt will get you into a for-profit medical school. More DOs match with MDs, there are more foreign IMGs, and even US med school slots have grown in the past 10 years. The (over)supply of med students is a non-issue in 2019 except for the aforementioned bag holders that really had no business in med school. 2. Since the 60s the AMA continues a slow decline in relevance. Less than 25% of MDs in the US are AMA members. I was an AMA member. Why? Because they bribed me and my classmates with significant discounts on exam prep material. At some point there will be more student members than practicing physicians. 3. The AMA may be aware of pediatricians vs. cardiologists, but they have little to do with it now. One, the over-abundance of cardiologists isn't an indisputable fact. Regional maldistribution is a thing. There are many parts of the US where a cards referral will still take months. The AMA is not the reason pediatric specialities have relatively poor compensation relative to years of training and lifestyle. The ACGME and other interest groups, even big pharma, device manufacturers had much to do with setting the stage. These days, large organizations help maintain the status quo. Consider that pediatric subspecialties are not competitive. Just about any average to slightly below average US grad that wants to do it can... it's not a labor supply issue! In 2019 some doctors have it pretty good, and some not so much. Geographic disparities are huge. The public policy affecting medical practitioners is now a large number of independent special interest groups and public policy wonks. For instance, cardiologists have the ACC (their own body), but what is really powerful at this point is the motley group of pharma companies and interventional device mfrs, and huge HCOs... practitioners can benefit because obviously some interests align (A TAVR isn't too profitable without a doc to place it). tl;dr medical professionals sort of bounce around in a Medusa head of healthcare organization and industry special interests these days... we're doing well insofar as we are useful idiots in this machine. The idea that we have unified representation is laughable.
- Balgair 8y ago
  Thanks for the update to my mental schemas! I had no idea it was that far out of whack!

lurquer 8y ago

A more accurate term for what is 'required' is a Guild. Medicine and Law are the last two examples in the US. It is a crime to practice law or medicine without a license. And, for the most part, the amount of licenses dispensed each year is left up to the practitioners' professional association. In short, you'd want to make it illegal to program for pay (or to distribute free software) without being a member of the guild. That will never happen -- thank goodness. But, it is the model that allowed the economy to chug along through the Middle Ages.

Balgair 8y ago
Another example is the Professional Engineer (PE). Bridges don't just get designed and built. A PE is usually required to sign off that these structures are safe and usable. Little Fischer-Price playhouses aren't the same as the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Though not a guild in all but name, the PE acts just the same. In fact, there is guild-like behavior in a lot of professions, come to think of it.
- lurquer 8y ago
  There are several that are guild-like. For instance, in my state it is illegal to hold yourself out as providing 'accounting services' without being a CPA. Likewise, it is illegal to assist in the sale/purchase of real estate for a fee without being a broker/realtor (or a lawyer). It's undoubtedly the same for engineering. However, there may be a subtle difference... A non-accountant can certainly help with your books so long as they don't hold themselves out as an "accountant." And, a non-realtor can certainly help you find a house, so long as they aren't paid contingency related to the ultimate transaction. I think -- and I may be wrong -- a non-engineer can charge to design a treehouse for your... so long as he doesn't hold himself out as an engineer. (Obviously, when it comes to roads, permit-related structures, etc., a governmental agency may require a P.E.... but, that's a different set of requirements.) But, one may not practice medicine EVEN IF one refrains from holding himself out as a doctor. And, one may not dispense legal advice EVEN IF it is clear to all involved that the person is not a lawyer.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

largecoredump 8y ago

IAAD. Most of these points on medicine are either outdated or plain inaccurate. 1. The AMA had tight control on med schools 50-100 years ago. These days a mediocre score on the MCAT and a desire for $300k+ in debt will get you into a for-profit medical school. More DOs match with MDs, there are more foreign IMGs, and even US med school slots have grown in the past 10 years. The (over)supply of med students is a non-issue in 2019 except for the aforementioned bag holders that really had no business in med school. 2. Since the 60s the AMA continues a slow decline in relevance. Less than 25% of MDs in the US are AMA members. I was an AMA member. Why? Because they bribed me and my classmates with significant discounts on exam prep material. At some point there will be more student members than practicing physicians. 3. The AMA may be aware of pediatricians vs. cardiologists, but they have little to do with it now. One, the over-abundance of cardiologists isn't an indisputable fact. Regional maldistribution is a thing. There are many parts of the US where a cards referral will still take months. The AMA is not the reason pediatric specialities have relatively poor compensation relative to years of training and lifestyle. The ACGME and other interest groups, even big pharma, device manufacturers had much to do with setting the stage. These days, large organizations help maintain the status quo. Consider that pediatric subspecialties are not competitive. Just about any average to slightly below average US grad that wants to do it can... it's not a labor supply issue! In 2019 some doctors have it pretty good, and some not so much. Geographic disparities are huge. The public policy affecting medical practitioners is now a large number of independent special interest groups and public policy wonks. For instance, cardiologists have the ACC (their own body), but what is really powerful at this point is the motley group of pharma companies and interventional device mfrs, and huge HCOs... practitioners can benefit because obviously some interests align (A TAVR isn't too profitable without a doc to place it). tl;dr medical professionals sort of bounce around in a Medusa head of healthcare organization and industry special interests these days... we're doing well insofar as we are useful idiots in this machine. The idea that we have unified representation is laughable.

Balgair 8y ago
Thanks for the update to my mental schemas! I had no idea it was that far out of whack!