5 ms·

They are not being exploited. They are free to take on another job. Especially coders could certainly find jobs in other industries. And "Fortnite" is not the

They are not being exploited. They are free to take on another job. Especially coders could certainly find jobs in other industries. And "Fortnite" is not the games industry. There are a variety of ways to make a living making games.

NaNtales 8y ago
Of course you can stop being exploited as a game developer by leaving the games industry---but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation?
- ctdonath 8y ago
  They are welcome to jump in independently, produce their own games, and compete with the rest. They will then learn the realities of "GET IT DONE", that those whining at management about >40hr work weeks get trounced by those viewing projects as "24/7 with bio breaks". It's not about whether you have a right to follow a chosen career. It's about that chosen career being chosen by many more people than the market can support, the competition being ferocious, and the reality that those wanting to get it right get run over by those getting it DONE.
- magduf 8y ago
  There's only so many jobs available in a career field. If there's far more people clamoring to take those jobs than positions available, why should employers bother to pay them more than a pittance? The employer who pays extremely well will be uncompetitive compared to the other employers. If employees don't like this, they should stop trying to get these terribly-compensated jobs, and go to other industries. There is a shortage of qualified developers in other industries. Salaries are very high, working conditions are generally good, so why do these masochists insist on "pursuing their passion" in the games field where this isn't the case? I'm sorry, I have no sympathy. It's not like these people don't have options. This is seriously a "first world problem" here. The big problem is that too many people seem to think that people have some kind of "right" to a career. They don't. As a society, people should have the right to a decent job and livelihood, I will agree. However, no one has the right to do their dream job, and get paid a fortune for doing it! Careers are subject to the laws of supply and demand like anything else, and games are not something vital to society where the government has any business stepping in with regulation to keep things running smoothly, as it does with things like electric utilities, infrastructure, education, or aviation safety.
- bubblewrap 8y ago
  Because nobody is entitled to a job. Nobody should be forced to give you money. If they don't need your services, why should they? I guess game development is more like wanting to be an artist. What if I want to make a living making paintings? Should people/society be forced to buy my paintings? I don't think so. It's my job to convince people to buy my paintings, and if I fail, too bad. Back to selling fries.
- Tiktaalik 8y ago
  It is also worth noting that many of the skills in the games industry are highly specialized to the games industry. Games is kind of like a 'galapagos island' to its own. Most games developers won't know any language other than C++, won't know anything about the web, won't know anything about databases, etc....
  - crazy1van 8y ago
    C++ is consistently one of the most popular programming languages [0]. Large-project, high-performance C++ programming that a game developer likely possesses is probably one of the most broadly portable programming skills a person could have. [0] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/
- sigstoat 8y ago
  > but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation? "change their career"? come on, it isn't as though they're being asked to become coal miners or journalists. just go compete for some of the jobs doing scientific visualization software, or take some other high paying software job.
- tathougies 8y ago
  > but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation? You've got to be kidding, right?
- grigjd3 8y ago
  Don't know why someone is entitled to a particular career. Change can be hard but I certainly wasn't ever promised an easy life.
CydeWeys 8y ago
And they're also free to, rather than leave their dream career, push for unionization instead and fight to remain inside it. Just leaving is one choice, but fighting is another.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  But the company was there first. If the company sucks, than those devs could also found a better company instead of trying to change the bad company. So fighting, yes, but maybe for something solid.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    I don't see why that matters. It's legal to go find another job. It's also legal to unionize. Who are you to tell other people what to do? It's fine if you would just leave, but maybe others don't want to. Maybe they've poured their heart and soul into that company, or it's the best job around and if they leave it they'd have to move. There's plenty of reasons why people who are not you would choose to fight instead of give up and leave. It doesn't make sense to criticize others for doing something that's perfectly acceptable just because you wouldn't do it.
    - hutzlibu 8y ago
      " It doesn't make sense to criticize others for doing something that's perfectly acceptable just because you wouldn't do it." So you criticize me for criticizing? And that makes sense?
- bubblewrap 8y ago
  Sure, they are free to do that. I mostly take issue with the framing by the NYT, talking of "exploitation" and unionization as the only choice/way to fight back. Especially the "exploitation" bit - game developers are not slaves, by a long stretch. If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives. You could also "fight" by creating your own game studio with better work conditions, for example. In my personal view, unionization is just blackmailing. That's my personal opinion, though (guess that doesn't make me better than the NYT, but at least I state it as my opinion, not as absolute truth). I am not sympathetic to unionization, because I think it probably harms the game developers who are currently unemployed, and it is not really fair play imo (it is banking on arbitrary laws that are not rooted in economic reality).

NaNtales 8y ago

Of course you can stop being exploited as a game developer by leaving the games industry---but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation?

ctdonath 8y ago
They are welcome to jump in independently, produce their own games, and compete with the rest. They will then learn the realities of "GET IT DONE", that those whining at management about >40hr work weeks get trounced by those viewing projects as "24/7 with bio breaks". It's not about whether you have a right to follow a chosen career. It's about that chosen career being chosen by many more people than the market can support, the competition being ferocious, and the reality that those wanting to get it right get run over by those getting it DONE.
magduf 8y ago
There's only so many jobs available in a career field. If there's far more people clamoring to take those jobs than positions available, why should employers bother to pay them more than a pittance? The employer who pays extremely well will be uncompetitive compared to the other employers. If employees don't like this, they should stop trying to get these terribly-compensated jobs, and go to other industries. There is a shortage of qualified developers in other industries. Salaries are very high, working conditions are generally good, so why do these masochists insist on "pursuing their passion" in the games field where this isn't the case? I'm sorry, I have no sympathy. It's not like these people don't have options. This is seriously a "first world problem" here. The big problem is that too many people seem to think that people have some kind of "right" to a career. They don't. As a society, people should have the right to a decent job and livelihood, I will agree. However, no one has the right to do their dream job, and get paid a fortune for doing it! Careers are subject to the laws of supply and demand like anything else, and games are not something vital to society where the government has any business stepping in with regulation to keep things running smoothly, as it does with things like electric utilities, infrastructure, education, or aviation safety.
bubblewrap 8y ago
Because nobody is entitled to a job. Nobody should be forced to give you money. If they don't need your services, why should they? I guess game development is more like wanting to be an artist. What if I want to make a living making paintings? Should people/society be forced to buy my paintings? I don't think so. It's my job to convince people to buy my paintings, and if I fail, too bad. Back to selling fries.
Tiktaalik 8y ago
It is also worth noting that many of the skills in the games industry are highly specialized to the games industry. Games is kind of like a 'galapagos island' to its own. Most games developers won't know any language other than C++, won't know anything about the web, won't know anything about databases, etc....
- crazy1van 8y ago
  C++ is consistently one of the most popular programming languages [0]. Large-project, high-performance C++ programming that a game developer likely possesses is probably one of the most broadly portable programming skills a person could have. [0] https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/cplusplus/
sigstoat 8y ago
> but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation? "change their career"? come on, it isn't as though they're being asked to become coal miners or journalists. just go compete for some of the jobs doing scientific visualization software, or take some other high paying software job.
tathougies 8y ago
> but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation? You've got to be kidding, right?
grigjd3 8y ago
Don't know why someone is entitled to a particular career. Change can be hard but I certainly wasn't ever promised an easy life.

CydeWeys 8y ago

And they're also free to, rather than leave their dream career, push for unionization instead and fight to remain inside it. Just leaving is one choice, but fighting is another.

hutzlibu 8y ago
But the company was there first. If the company sucks, than those devs could also found a better company instead of trying to change the bad company. So fighting, yes, but maybe for something solid.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  I don't see why that matters. It's legal to go find another job. It's also legal to unionize. Who are you to tell other people what to do? It's fine if you would just leave, but maybe others don't want to. Maybe they've poured their heart and soul into that company, or it's the best job around and if they leave it they'd have to move. There's plenty of reasons why people who are not you would choose to fight instead of give up and leave. It doesn't make sense to criticize others for doing something that's perfectly acceptable just because you wouldn't do it.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    " It doesn't make sense to criticize others for doing something that's perfectly acceptable just because you wouldn't do it." So you criticize me for criticizing? And that makes sense?
bubblewrap 8y ago
Sure, they are free to do that. I mostly take issue with the framing by the NYT, talking of "exploitation" and unionization as the only choice/way to fight back. Especially the "exploitation" bit - game developers are not slaves, by a long stretch. If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives. You could also "fight" by creating your own game studio with better work conditions, for example. In my personal view, unionization is just blackmailing. That's my personal opinion, though (guess that doesn't make me better than the NYT, but at least I state it as my opinion, not as absolute truth). I am not sympathetic to unionization, because I think it probably harms the game developers who are currently unemployed, and it is not really fair play imo (it is banking on arbitrary laws that are not rooted in economic reality).