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RIM sues Kik for patent infringement
- mike-cardwell 16y agoI will never buy a product from RIM now.
- alex_c 16y agoWhy not wait until you learn a few more details than a vague "RIM sues Kik for something" post before you decide to boycott a company?
- LordLandon 16y agoBefore invalidating kik's keys, they removed kik from the bb market once before, claiming battery drain as the problem. If that was honestly the problem they had with it, there wouldn't be a lawsuit now, or there would've been one earlier. This is most definitely an evil attempt at keeping bbm relevant which began with a pretty sneaky excuse.
- st3fan 16y agoWow this is huge. They could have just removed them from the store. Instead they start a patent suit to basically kill the company. Interesting strategy. RIM can't do much directly about the iOS and Android competition. But they can sue popular cross-platforms apps. Evil evil evil.
- alex_c 16y agoI don't want to defend RIM, because I don't know anything about the lawsuit (other than it's likely to be a software patent for something relatively obvious). But I don't see this as significantly more evil than "just removing them from the store". A lawsuit shows that RIM has a serious grievance (whether justified or not) and moves to settle the matter of competition through an official legal framework (whether flawed or not). Unilaterally removing an application from app markets that are "open to all developers unless we say they're not" for competitive reasons strikes me as more evil in some ways. We are just a lot more used to it because of Apple's app store.
- potatolicious 16y agoThere is a significant increase in evil-ness between the two IMHO. Banning them from the store/crippling their existing installs is basically: "we don't like you competing with our first party offerings, so get the hell off our platform" Suing them now, given that Kik is still active on other platforms, is basically: "we don't like you competing with our offerings, so we're going to prevent you from operating anywhere, even on platforms we don't own or have any control over" I don't know about you, but the second seems a bit more evil than the first.
- alex_c 16y agoBut that's exactly the point of patents. If there's evil here, it's because of using offensively a patent that should not have been granted, not because other platforms are also involved.
- enjo 16y agoBut at least Kik has recourse in the lawsuit case. In the former they simply don't have the right to exist because the platform holder says so. It's not good for customers and it's sure as hell not good for developers. I agree with the parent, simply booting someone from your walled garden is more evil in the sense that they can't do anything about it.
- Herring 16y agoThe lesson here is if you get 1M users in 15 days, you talk about it at your own peril.
- fertel 16y agoI would love to see the specific patent(s) Kik is infringing upon. It's a pretty standard IM client, if as the article says it is for: "sent, delivered, read, and even when a user is typing a message." then RIM has a lot of apps to go after. Could be something more than that, as the CEO was a RIM employee at one point.
- wildmXranat 16y agoI'm sorry but how is this patentable : "I haven't read the Statement of Claim outlining RIM's allegations against Kik yet, but I suspect that the patent at issue covers a messaging platform that provides sent, delivered, read, and typing indicators." Having family work at their Waterloo head office leaves me torn and full of questions. Even though I don't own a RIM phone, I handled their Storm and it's rock solid. The feel is much better my 3G test phone or couple of Android phones, but as a developer I choose to support companies based on merit. RIM just came down a notch in my book. I compared Kik on my Android and the BBM on the Storm. I would be flabbergasted to find out the Canadian courts would allow this claim to play out.
- martythemaniak 16y agoFrom this, it would seem that Kik violated both Apple and RIM store guidelines: http://getsatisfaction.com/kik/topics/serious_privacy_flaw_within_kik http://getsatisfaction.com/kik/topics/serious_privacy_flaw_w... My take: RIM saw the violations and the threat to BBM and decided to ban Kik. Apple saw the violations and the threat to BBM and decided to leave them alone. Makes sense in both cases
- tomlin 16y agoSomething funny about them being literally a block away from each other. RIM could have walked over to their office and had been like, "hey, can yous guys stop the messenger app. k thx. bai". Google Map: http://bit.ly/ftLWro http://bit.ly/ftLWro
- axiom 16y agoGoogle maps is a bit out of date, so it doesn't show that there is a RIM building literally across the street. Like, it's the main building in view out of the Kik offices windows.
- rottendevice 16y agoHeh. Makes me wonder if Kik enticed some BBM engineers to switch jobs.
- scott_s 16y agoGo ahead and post long links on HN. We'd rather see the URL we're going to, and the text for really long URLs will get shortened. Example: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=search+for+a+really+long+string+to+demonstrate+a+point http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=search+fo...
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- tomlin 16y agoWill do next time :)
- rradu 16y agoHow else would you expect RIM to react to a product that infringes on one its core features? It's been pushing BBM heavily in its marketing campaigns, and can't afford to have that exclusivity taken away. Doesn't seem evil to me.
- mustpax 16y agoBy outdoing them in features, performance, installed userbase. You know, competing.
- rradu 16y agoSo should Apple drop all the lawsuits it has pending against other companies so it can focus more on competing? What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem unreasonable, as others are making it out to be, for RIM to sue a company for making a product that's nearly identical to its own.
- flogic 16y agolol! I guess it's official. RIM has decided they're a has been.
- andre3k1 16y agoWithout even reading the lawsuit, this has been declared official? C'mon now, let's not be quick to judge. What if this lawsuit had to do with Kik violating your privacy? Sharing your contacts' information, etc.
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- Batsu 16y agoPerhaps in relation to this patent (and a host of others, I'm sure)... METHOD FOR CREATING A PEER-TO-PEER IMMEDIATE MESSAGING SOLUTION WITHOUT USING AN INSTANT MESSAGING SERVER http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=RRaUAAAAEBAJ http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=RRaUAAAAEBAJ
- andreyf 16y agoThis might be stupid/crazy, but might it make sense to have a DNS for phone numbers? Why not have 6464680751.cell resolve to a public IP address of my phone? If another phone wants to send it a text message or make a phone call, could it just use the variety of protocols on top of IP?
- jallmann 16y agoYes, phone numbers are a legacy of the old telecom systems. SIP uses user@domain style URIs, and this can be mapped to a legacy number via ENUM, and vice versa. 4G cellular networks are all IP and use SIP for signalling. I doubt phones are publicly addresssable though, the telco probably NATs them. I eagerly await a number-free, VoIP-enabled, IPv6 world.
- tudorg 16y agoI think ENUM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_Number_Mapping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_Number_Mapping) is meant to do this. It is used by some telecoms.
- alanh 16y agoThat’s a US patent and the lawsuit is Canadian, but I have to imagine they applied for a similar patent in Canada. I hope they lose the case and their patent is invalidated. (Isn’t this system highly similar to how Napster messaging and AIM “direct connection” chats worked, before 2004?) Anyway, here’s another US patent that could be relevant. Seems even weaker, though: “A method of displaying messages on handheld devices. The device displays messages in a scrollable viewport of vertically arranged fields. Date separators inserted into the vertically arranged list of messages to enable the user to associate the messages with a date. …” http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=6lKrAAAAEBAJ http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=6lKrAAAAEBAJ
- andre3k1 16y agoAnyone able to attain a copy of the lawsuit? This is what the article links to: http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE_info_e.php?court_no=T-1996-10 http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE... I doubt this lawsuit has any real substance. Other than RIM dragging Kik through the equivalent of a legal hell, there doesn't seem to be much there.
- alanh 16y agoBackground: 0) Kik is like cross-platform BBM for Blackberry, Android, and iOS users. 1) RIM had previously removed Kik from the Blackberry “App World” store. 2) Then two weeks later, they revoked Kik’s developer keys and crippled existing Kik installs by disabling Push support. This meant Blackberry Kik users (reportedly over a million of them) would start getting Kik messages up to an hour late. Link / discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935093 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935093 ⁂ A week ago, we discussed the possibility of a lawsuit. Discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935182 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935182 ⁂ Strikes me as evil and, as some of you are saying, a bad move politically for their platform. Even if only those 1,000,000 Kik on BB users care, and most BB users don’t, we developers generally give a shit, because this seems grossly uncalled for and anticompetitive.
- nano81 16y agoSuing Waterloo students is also not how to build rapport with the massive number of co-op students they hire every term.
- muffinman2010 16y agoWhat a bitch move RIM, there will be more UofT students filling up RIM now...
- S_A_P 16y agoNothing says we want developers on our platform like suing the popular app makers. Even if there seemed to be some IP theft here, I think lawsuit is a horrible way to solve the problem. There is just no PR spin you could put here to fix this.
- jonknee 16y agoHow else would you resolve an IP theft situation? Asking nicely?
- dalore 16y agoNot approving the app in the first place into their store, wait till they are popular and a threat. If they are stealing IP then RIM should not have let them onto the store to begin with. RIM should know what their IP is. I would say that if they RIM already reviewed their app and let it onto the store, that is a tacit implication that they approved the app with RIM's (alleged) IP in it.
- jonknee 16y agoPerhaps RIM's IP attorney isn't working at the app store? Lucky for RIM though, I'm sure the app store legal agreements don't include anything silly like having an approval be a license for any RIM IP.
- Rantenki 16y agoI wonder when they will sue skype (which also has these indicators)... Funny how RIM wrote an open letter (strangely removed from their site now) about how patents were a problem, and needed to be reformed. They got sued for similarly obvious patents not long ago, and had a very different attitude from the defendant's side of the argument. Article about the now redacted letter: http://goo.gl/e6e4U http://goo.gl/e6e4U
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- terryjsmith 16y agoWhile I agree with the consensus that this is evil (essentially cutting a start-up off at it's knees), RIM has a legal obligation to enforce that patent if they know someone is infringing or they risk losing it. The Kik founder should have been much more vocal about being booted and having his keys revoked; now he makes himself look like an easy target. He really needs to put PR pressure on RIM at this point if Kik is going to survive.
- nano81 16y agoI think you're confusing patent with trademark: "As a trademark must be used to maintain rights in relation to that mark, a trademark can be 'abandoned' or its registration can be cancelled or revoked if the mark is not continuously used. By comparison, patents and copyrights cannot be 'abandoned' and a patent holder or copyright owner can generally enforce their rights without taking any particular action to maintain the patent or copyright." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Comparison_with_patents.2C_designs_and_copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Comparison_with_paten...
- JabavuAdams 16y agoAre you an IP lawyer, 'cause if not ... I can easily see how choosing not to enforce a patent might make it harder to claim infringement in a later case. It's not that the patent would expire, but that there would be a precedent of not caring about infringers.
- nano81 16y agoIANAL, but does that make what I said wrong? He didn't say anything about setting precedent, he said they risk "losing" the patent if they do not enforce it, which is just not true. If you have a source saying otherwise, I'd love to see it.
- JabavuAdams 16y agoIANAL, but I have a vague memory from a patent talk. So, I can't disprove you, but I can remain more skeptical of your claim, unless you're an IP lawyer -- in which case I'd assume you know something I don't. Regarding the semantics of "lose" -- why does it matter in any discussion of real-world actions or motivations? Even if I don't lose something, if I do things to erode its usefulness, I've essentially lost its functionality. Therefore regardless of whether I legally lose the thing or not, I'm going to resist doing things that (possibly) reduce its effectiveness -- the result (in terms of my actions) is the same.
- natch 16y agoRim is taking a significant risk that its patents will be invalidated now for obviousness, or, just as likely, if prior art surfaces.
- dstein 16y agoI guess RIM went to the Oracle school of business. They're going to find out exactly why this is a VERY bad move. They're going to have an awful time trying attract developers for their platform.
- spacemanaki 16y agoI can't pretend to be well informed on this kind of business strategy, but wouldn't another option be to BUY Kik? Turn the iPhone and Android app into a RIM-branded, cross-platform BBM, and incorporated it into the BlackBerry client. Maybe risky, but it might help their platform more than a lawsuit... If it was a really solid app maybe iPhone or Android users would think of getting a BB for their next phone, and it might keep current BB users where they are. I dunno, this whole affair definitely seems poorly thought out. BlackBerry app development is horrible enough as it is, and there are more and more things making it unappealing. (one of the CEOs said mobile apps are a fad a few weeks ago)
- dedward 16y agoThey don't under any circumstances WANT a cross-platform BBM. BBM is the one killer-app keeping people using blackberries due to the network effect. The only reason I still have a blackberry is because friends and family in far off countries also have them, and vice-versa - we cna talk to each other freely and easily on the run. BBM is really good at this. We would all have to switch to something new, and just as reliable, at the same time to make jumping platforms viable. As soon as there is something that works as well as BBM that's cross platform, lots of people will jump ship as soon as they are able, as long as they can reach their BBM friends (who will eventually jump ship too)
- spacemanaki 16y agoI hear this a lot about BBM, although I've never used it. I think you're right, of course, about them not wanting a cross-platform version. I just wondered if there was something other than a lawsuit they could have done, since a lawsuit seems so ill-fated from a PR angle... Android and iOS are going to continue eating their lunch whether Kik exists or not.
- nailer 16y agoI agree with you, but trying to see it from BB's perspective: they make money from selling devices, that require BB services to do push. Push email is now a commodity, via push IMAP, push Exchange, COMET webmail, and a bucketload of other apps. BBM is one of the last things unique to BB. Of course it will inevitably be commoditized, but BB will try and delay this as long as possible using whatever tactics it can. If you can get a nicer quality smartphone that does instant messaging, and push email, why would you want a BB with a poor quality web browser and a paltry few shitty quality apps?
- yesno 16y agoBBM is the key of BB existence for regular/most BB users outside Enterprise. Without BBM, BB is probably crippled.
- dalore 16y ago> I haven't read the Statement of Claim outlining RIM's allegations against Kik yet, but I suspect that the patent at issue covers a messaging platform that provides sent, delivered, read, and typing indicators. So the guy admits to not reading the statement outlining the allegation, but he will comment on it anyway.
- OmarIsmail 16y agoAs a founder of a Waterloo startup this pisses me off to no end. If RIM hadn't taken such hostile actions Kik may very well have been a Next Big Thing. I mean, Kik might still achieve that - and I damn hope they do - but it will be in spite of RIM's hostility. Now for Waterloo region which has been trying to make a name for itself in the tech/startup world, having a Next Big Thing coming out of it would have been huge. It would have benefited the region from a financial standpoint (think PayPal mafia) and it would have benefited the region from a talent attraction standpoint. RIM's actions are not only an assault on Kik they're an assault on Waterloo's startup community as a whole.
- axiom 16y agoI think they still will be the next big thing. This will buy them more publicity than any kind of PR budget.
- mikepurvis 16y agoI wonder what the feasibility would be of developing a web client for BlackBerry, with long-polling or websockets for the notifications. http://us.blackberry.com/developers/browserdev/ http://us.blackberry.com/developers/browserdev/ The key viral feature was using the addressbook to populate the contact list, and you'd lose that, but still be able to implement a bunch of the other stuff. I can't tell from that browserdev page how much of the "widget API" is stuff that you'd need to get bundled up and signed, and how much is just available in the browser. Either way, this is a pretty developer-hostile move on RIM's part. That's okay, though; all indications are that RIM is capable of developing a large selection of beautiful, compelling, worthwhile first-party apps for the Playbook. A third-party developer ecosystem would really just weigh the platform down.
- jeremydavid 16y agoI hope the Barbra Streisand Effect happens here. I love Kik; it is a brilliantly simple app that I use everyday and I would certainly be happy if more of my friends used it.
- qeorge 16y agoNot mentioned here, but "RIM said Kik Chief Executive Ted Livingston worked on product strategy for its BlackBerry Messenger." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704594804575648932379804088.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870459480457564... Not a minor point.