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I don’t think most people care about what parts of the human brain are present in monkeys. Even if the difference is just quantitative, it still remains a fact

I don’t think most people care about what parts of the human brain are present in monkeys. Even if the difference is just quantitative, it still remains a fact that humans talk, make music, feel remorse and have civilisations. So clearly we are fuyndamentally different from all other animals, even if we have the same components. The thing is really that when it comes to the mind, physical components are not really the interesting thing, holisitic, virtual components are what matter. Mice probably can’t feel remorse, but that is probably not because they lack a remorse center, it\s because their brains are too small or have too few connections to provide that functionality.

elcomet 8y ago
We might not be fundamentally different. Even a slight difference in the brain could result in hugely different abilities. The outcome is fundamentally different, but not necessarily the brain.
- Grustaf 8y ago
  That’s my point. Most people are not impressed hearing that mouse brains are similar to our brains, clearly the end result is fundamentally different.
2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
> it still remains a fact that humans talk, make music, feel remorse and have civilisations We are very clearly not the only species that can have complex communication. Other mammals do so without even counting primates. Bird songs and whale songs are not music? I partially agree about feelings. My gut says that animals have emotions. But we should not be assigning human emotions to whatever is going on with them. Though perhaps primates mirror our emotions since we are after all closely related. They certainly don't have civilisations or culture on the level that we do. That's clear. But some other species of primate could have survived instead of us. At the end of the day, we're just an accident of evolution. Our ultimate goals is still to mature and try and reproduce just like everything else.
- Grustaf 8y ago
  What could have happened is not relevant, this is not a discussion about fate. Animal language is very limited, it is fair to call it fundamentally different. Same with bird songs. As to your last statement, that’s just that, a statement without basis.
circlefavshape 8y ago
We had no civilisations for most of our time on earth.
- Grustaf 8y ago
  We do now. Ants never will.
  - apocalypstyx 8y ago
    However, they managed to master animal husbandry, agriculture, and slavery before homo-sapiens. https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/slave-ants-and-their-masters-are-locked-deadly-relationship/ https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/slave-ants-and... https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-farmers-ants/ https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-farmers-... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/science/ant-fungus-farmers-evolution.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/science/ant-fungus-farmer...
    - Grustaf 8y ago
      All work and no play
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  ...and we changed, in the last 50,000 years. More change than in millions before then. And it was probably civilization that did it. Adapting to live in larger communities has had a profound effect on us genetically.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> So clearly we are [fundamentally] different from all other animals, even if we have the same components. This is not even remotely clear. More and more we are finding that the properties we told ourselves separated our minds from those of animals are not unique to us.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  I don't see poems written by mice, movies directed by monkeys, or starships built and crewed by dolphins. There's no lion embassy anywhere on the planet. Maybe only the cats plot to conquer the world. Point is, "the properties we told ourselves separated our minds from those of animals [that] are not unique to us" result in a qualitatively different outcomes in us vs. all the other animals. For instance, human socializing is about as similar to raven socializing as a computer is similar to a bunch of bowls and pebbles.
  - dsabanin 8y ago
    50,000 years ago humans did none of that either, yet we were genetically the same species as we are now. There's also something to be said about using your own ruler when measuring someone else's worth.
    - Grustaf 8y ago
      Unlesa you can imagine mice writing symphonies given enough time, how is that an argument?
      - Zigurd 8y ago
        I can imagine multiple conscious, tool-using, dextrous homo species who bear mostly helpless babies and who cook their food. That happened. I can also imagine conscious species evolving from primates. I can foresee someone being stupid enough to genetically engineer a very smart chimp. That's enough to think differently about some animals.

elcomet 8y ago

We might not be fundamentally different. Even a slight difference in the brain could result in hugely different abilities. The outcome is fundamentally different, but not necessarily the brain.

Grustaf 8y ago
That’s my point. Most people are not impressed hearing that mouse brains are similar to our brains, clearly the end result is fundamentally different.

2muchcoffeeman 8y ago

> it still remains a fact that humans talk, make music, feel remorse and have civilisations We are very clearly not the only species that can have complex communication. Other mammals do so without even counting primates. Bird songs and whale songs are not music? I partially agree about feelings. My gut says that animals have emotions. But we should not be assigning human emotions to whatever is going on with them. Though perhaps primates mirror our emotions since we are after all closely related. They certainly don't have civilisations or culture on the level that we do. That's clear. But some other species of primate could have survived instead of us. At the end of the day, we're just an accident of evolution. Our ultimate goals is still to mature and try and reproduce just like everything else.

Grustaf 8y ago
What could have happened is not relevant, this is not a discussion about fate. Animal language is very limited, it is fair to call it fundamentally different. Same with bird songs. As to your last statement, that’s just that, a statement without basis.

circlefavshape 8y ago

We had no civilisations for most of our time on earth.

Grustaf 8y ago
We do now. Ants never will.
- apocalypstyx 8y ago
  However, they managed to master animal husbandry, agriculture, and slavery before homo-sapiens. https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/slave-ants-and-their-masters-are-locked-deadly-relationship/ https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/slave-ants-and... https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-farmers-ants/ https://modernfarmer.com/2014/04/meet-earths-oldest-farmers-... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/science/ant-fungus-farmers-evolution.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/science/ant-fungus-farmer...
  - Grustaf 8y ago
    All work and no play
JoeAltmaier 8y ago
...and we changed, in the last 50,000 years. More change than in millions before then. And it was probably civilization that did it. Adapting to live in larger communities has had a profound effect on us genetically.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> So clearly we are [fundamentally] different from all other animals, even if we have the same components. This is not even remotely clear. More and more we are finding that the properties we told ourselves separated our minds from those of animals are not unique to us.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
I don't see poems written by mice, movies directed by monkeys, or starships built and crewed by dolphins. There's no lion embassy anywhere on the planet. Maybe only the cats plot to conquer the world. Point is, "the properties we told ourselves separated our minds from those of animals [that] are not unique to us" result in a qualitatively different outcomes in us vs. all the other animals. For instance, human socializing is about as similar to raven socializing as a computer is similar to a bunch of bowls and pebbles.
- dsabanin 8y ago
  50,000 years ago humans did none of that either, yet we were genetically the same species as we are now. There's also something to be said about using your own ruler when measuring someone else's worth.
  - Grustaf 8y ago
    Unlesa you can imagine mice writing symphonies given enough time, how is that an argument?
    - Zigurd 8y ago
      I can imagine multiple conscious, tool-using, dextrous homo species who bear mostly helpless babies and who cook their food. That happened. I can also imagine conscious species evolving from primates. I can foresee someone being stupid enough to genetically engineer a very smart chimp. That's enough to think differently about some animals.