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The took the necessary steps and it was working until they went off script. Whether or not their hand was force because the script stopped working remains to b

by treis 8y ago

The took the necessary steps and it was working until they went off script. Whether or not their hand was force because the script stopped working remains to be seen. IMHO, there's little to do except to wait for the full report to come out. The speculation about the crash was wildly wrong and the preliminary report coming out didn't really stop that.

msbarnett 8y ago
> The took the necessary steps and it was working until they went off script. Whether or not their hand was force because the script stopped working remains to be seen The script required them to manually crank in the stabilizer, which wasn't possible. The script was manifestly not "working". That doesn't "remain to be seen" -- it's in the transcript of the cockpit
- treis 8y ago
  Yes, people are speculating this and like the previous speculation they're probably wrong.
  - msbarnett 8y ago
    > At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and First- Officer confirmed stab trim cut-out. > At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working. I guess the First-Officer must have been speculating...
    - kayfox 8y ago
      Its not clear if the pilots meant trimming it manually with the switches or with the trim wheel.
    - treis 8y ago
      Pilots are often wrong about what their aircraft is doing. In fact, that's a big reason why they crash. So yes, the First Officer said that but that is not conclusive proof that they couldn't manually trim. He may have misinterpreted the question and tried the electric trim again. Or maybe he tried turning the wheel and didn't do it right. Or maybe he needed to try again. Or maybe he needed the pilots help. Or maybe the manual trim system was broken. There's any number of explanations for that statement. Until someone sits down and calculates the torque needed to manually trim it's all just speculation.
      - cjbprime 8y ago
        Bear in mind that they're at low altitude and the pilot is busy supplying maximum pull on the yoke, and therefore likely unavailable to help crank a stiff trim wheel.
        treis 8y ago
        >Bear in mind that they're at low altitude They weren't >the pilot is busy supplying maximum pull on the yoke, Probably not true either >and therefore likely unavailable to help crank a stiff trim wheel Runaway trim should be a recoverable situation. If that's impossible then that means there is a distinct and major issue beyond MCAS.
        ddalex 8y ago
        I wouldn't feed the troll, but I don't want your misinformation to spread. > They weren't They just took off, max height of the airplane was 1000 feet above the ground. That's a definely low altitude. > Runaway trim should be a recoverable situation. The trim pointed the nose down. The aerodynamic forces were so high on the elevator that the trim wheels could not be moved by a single person. This was confirmed in 737 simulator.
        treis 8y ago
        >They just took off, max height of the airplane was 1000 feet above the ground. That's a definely low altitude. People thought that based on Flightaware data. But if you actually read the report you will see that it is incorrect and they reached about 7,000 feet. >The trim pointed the nose down. Incorrect. The plane was steadily gaining altitude until they re-enabled electric trim. >I wouldn't feed the troll, but I don't want your misinformation to spread. Try being right before throwing around personal insults.
ambicapter 8y ago
Why are you speaking authoritatively about what the pilot's did and in the same breath admonishing people for not waiting for the "full report"?
- treis 8y ago
  Because the preliminary report contains data showing that electric trim was re-engaged.
  - msbarnett 8y ago
    Why are you dismissing the data the report contains indicating that the flight crew was unable to trim manually, that the column forces were incredibly high, and that the captain repeatedly indicated he could not maintain elevator trim without the co-pilot's aid, then? Your responses have been incredibly selective about which parts of the report you take as gospel and which you handwave away as "speculation". From where I'm sitting it appears you've started out by picking a contrarian conclusion you like ("the plane was safe once STAB CUTOUT was set cutout, and the crew could have maintained altitude indefinitely at that point, but fatally fucked up by re-engaging electronic trim to try to trim the stabilizer"), and to maintain that a priori conclusion you've consistently ignored the data and parts of the transcript that indicate that was very likely impossible.
    - treis 8y ago
      >Why are you dismissing the data the report contains indicating that the flight crew was unable to trim manually, that the column forces were incredibly high Where is that data in the report?
      - msbarnett 8y ago
        > At 05:40:44, the Captain called out three times “Pull-up” and the First-Officer acknowledged. > At 05:41:30, the Captain requested the First-Officer to pitch up with him and the First-Officer acknowledged. > At 05:43:04, the Captain asked the First Officer to pitch up together and said that pitch is not enough. Take a look at the chart of control column position deflections. They're jolting around like crazy at +10 to +15 aft starting immediately at the first big MCAS trim event through to the end of the recording. That's because the stabilizer mis-trim is exerting considerable force on the elevator. The captain wasn't calling for aid on the column for shits and giggles.

by treis 8y ago

msbarnett 8y ago

> The took the necessary steps and it was working until they went off script. Whether or not their hand was force because the script stopped working remains to be seen The script required them to manually crank in the stabilizer, which wasn't possible. The script was manifestly not "working". That doesn't "remain to be seen" -- it's in the transcript of the cockpit

treis 8y ago
Yes, people are speculating this and like the previous speculation they're probably wrong.
- msbarnett 8y ago
  > At 05:40:35, the First-Officer called out “stab trim cut-out” two times. Captain agreed and First- Officer confirmed stab trim cut-out. > At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working. I guess the First-Officer must have been speculating...
  - kayfox 8y ago
    Its not clear if the pilots meant trimming it manually with the switches or with the trim wheel.
  - treis 8y ago
    Pilots are often wrong about what their aircraft is doing. In fact, that's a big reason why they crash. So yes, the First Officer said that but that is not conclusive proof that they couldn't manually trim. He may have misinterpreted the question and tried the electric trim again. Or maybe he tried turning the wheel and didn't do it right. Or maybe he needed to try again. Or maybe he needed the pilots help. Or maybe the manual trim system was broken. There's any number of explanations for that statement. Until someone sits down and calculates the torque needed to manually trim it's all just speculation.
    - cjbprime 8y ago
      Bear in mind that they're at low altitude and the pilot is busy supplying maximum pull on the yoke, and therefore likely unavailable to help crank a stiff trim wheel.
      - treis 8y ago
        >Bear in mind that they're at low altitude They weren't >the pilot is busy supplying maximum pull on the yoke, Probably not true either >and therefore likely unavailable to help crank a stiff trim wheel Runaway trim should be a recoverable situation. If that's impossible then that means there is a distinct and major issue beyond MCAS.
        ddalex 8y ago
        I wouldn't feed the troll, but I don't want your misinformation to spread. > They weren't They just took off, max height of the airplane was 1000 feet above the ground. That's a definely low altitude. > Runaway trim should be a recoverable situation. The trim pointed the nose down. The aerodynamic forces were so high on the elevator that the trim wheels could not be moved by a single person. This was confirmed in 737 simulator.
        treis 8y ago
        >They just took off, max height of the airplane was 1000 feet above the ground. That's a definely low altitude. People thought that based on Flightaware data. But if you actually read the report you will see that it is incorrect and they reached about 7,000 feet. >The trim pointed the nose down. Incorrect. The plane was steadily gaining altitude until they re-enabled electric trim. >I wouldn't feed the troll, but I don't want your misinformation to spread. Try being right before throwing around personal insults.

ambicapter 8y ago

Why are you speaking authoritatively about what the pilot's did and in the same breath admonishing people for not waiting for the "full report"?

treis 8y ago
Because the preliminary report contains data showing that electric trim was re-engaged.
- msbarnett 8y ago
  Why are you dismissing the data the report contains indicating that the flight crew was unable to trim manually, that the column forces were incredibly high, and that the captain repeatedly indicated he could not maintain elevator trim without the co-pilot's aid, then? Your responses have been incredibly selective about which parts of the report you take as gospel and which you handwave away as "speculation". From where I'm sitting it appears you've started out by picking a contrarian conclusion you like ("the plane was safe once STAB CUTOUT was set cutout, and the crew could have maintained altitude indefinitely at that point, but fatally fucked up by re-engaging electronic trim to try to trim the stabilizer"), and to maintain that a priori conclusion you've consistently ignored the data and parts of the transcript that indicate that was very likely impossible.
  - treis 8y ago
    >Why are you dismissing the data the report contains indicating that the flight crew was unable to trim manually, that the column forces were incredibly high Where is that data in the report?
    - msbarnett 8y ago
      > At 05:40:44, the Captain called out three times “Pull-up” and the First-Officer acknowledged. > At 05:41:30, the Captain requested the First-Officer to pitch up with him and the First-Officer acknowledged. > At 05:43:04, the Captain asked the First Officer to pitch up together and said that pitch is not enough. Take a look at the chart of control column position deflections. They're jolting around like crazy at +10 to +15 aft starting immediately at the first big MCAS trim event through to the end of the recording. That's because the stabilizer mis-trim is exerting considerable force on the elevator. The captain wasn't calling for aid on the column for shits and giggles.