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We have this. It's called a Federal Reserve Note. You may have seen them before. CityLab is beyond parody. Yes, sure, the real problem with public transit is t

We have this. It's called a Federal Reserve Note. You may have seen them before. CityLab is beyond parody. Yes, sure, the real problem with public transit is that jet-setting tourists have to install new apps on their iPhoneX in each city they visit.

jchw 8y ago
I haven't touched a physical dollar bill in multiple years.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  So? ATMs are everywhere. If you need to access transit in a pinch, you can just take out some cash. It's the universal fallback payment.
  - stephencoyner 8y ago
    Most transit systems do not provide any change. So if you go to an ATM and get $20, then break it for a $2.00 fare, you lose $18.00. That's not a solution.
    - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
      I bought a train ticket the other day from a vending machine. You put in a $20 and it spits out a ticket and your change. Systems that are incapable of doing this are designed poorly. That is not a shortcoming of cash or technology, it is a shortcoming of the transit operator.
      - stephencoyner 8y ago
        That's not the only issue. Cash also slows down the system. If I shove my crumpled dollar bill into the machine it will slow down the whole route, adding cost for the agency. The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple.
        AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        This is why you have tickets or transit tokens. You can buy one on the bus/train, but then it costs 30% more and so nobody does that. Then you can buy a token using any payment method you like, whenever you like. Buy them from a vending machine at the train station with cash, order a month's worth on your credit card and have them shipped to your home, whatever you prefer. Dropping an exact value coin into a machine is a solved problem, is reliable, instantaneous, has automatic redundancy in high volume locations because there will be multiple machines, protects privacy, etc. > The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple. That is not a significant cost. The service is paid a small amount of money to collect a much larger amount of money, and if you do more frequent pickups then less security is required and the ratio stays low. Meanwhile with cash you don't have to deal with chargebacks, computer intrusions, processing fees, etc.
        rcw4256 8y ago
        Parent comment is referring to a ticket vending machine external to the coach, not an on-coach bill acceptor. It does not slow down the route.
  - lemoncucumber 8y ago
    Have you ever taken a bus? Every bus I've ever taken doesn't give change, so it's not a matter of just getting a $20 bill from an ATM and being good to go. You have to have exact change (and often it's not an even dollar amount which is that much more of a pain). Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. If enough people pay cash, it slows down the bus significantly. We should be trying to get to the point where nobody pays cash when boarding buses for this reason alone.
    - darren_ 8y ago
      > Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. Around here, on board the busses, they have completely automated machines that can read all the notes and dispense change automatically, they even seem pretty robust at it (crumpled bills, etc work fine) - they essentially as good a job as it's possible to do with cash. And it still takes agonizingly longer than tapping a transit card and everyone else on the bus hates you.
  - astrodust 8y ago
    Yes, I too love paying exorbitant fees for the privilege of taking money out of an ATM. I pay $0 for debit transactions, but anywhere from $1 to $4 for an ATM withdrawal.
    - frosted-flakes 8y ago
      Use your bank's ATM then.
      - astrodust 8y ago
        This is so practical.
    - azeotropic 8y ago
      You should switch banks or join a credit union.
      - astrodust 8y ago
        Why? So I can take filthy money I never use out of an ATM I don't want to use?
  - jchw 8y ago
    Not ever carrying cash is just as much a defense measure as it is a practical measure, though also almost everything supports some form of electronic payments, be it in the form of plastic or phone.
- drivingmenuts 8y ago
  Assuming you’re in the US, what do you do if you lose connectivity, like leaving an urban area? What’s your option if you break your phone? what options would you suggest for the unbanked or those without smartphones? Just because you haven’t handled actu al cash in a while doesn’t mean others haven’t. A large percentage of people still rely on cash transactions to get thru the day.
  - jchw 8y ago
    No offense, but have you heard of credit/debit/check cards? I rarely use my phone for payments unless I forget my wallet. All I'm suggesting is that the "federal reserve note" is not as universal anymore. It's only practically useful if I have it.
xxpor 8y ago
London already doesn't allow cash on buses. There's huge costs in installing bill collectors. People paying cash on a bus slows everyone else down. Making everything electronic would solve a lot of issues.
- nine_k 8y ago
  Buying a smartcard or even magnetic day ticket for cash needs not be hard.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    It isn't, but if you're wanting to board a bus you'll need to find an open newsagents or rail station nearby to sell you one. In which case the universal smartcard or app suddenly seems a lot more convenient
    - nine_k 8y ago
      I agree. I'm only trying to show that an electronic ticket and not being personally tracked are compatible, unlike suggested upthread. All it takes is to buy / refill an electronic ticket with cash.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
      Is finding an open newsagent/rail station really that big of a deal? In Sweden (in Skåne at least, since the rail/bus solutions are all regional there) you have both options. You can buy your tickets on an app that you scan on the bus or train, or you can buy a smart card anonymously with cash when there is an open newsstand/rail station and use that to beep onto trains and buses. So if you go the anonymous route when you need to top up your smart card with money you can do it with cash from a kiosk in an automated machine 24/7, so long as there is a kiosk around (every rail station has them). With a fair bit of planning it’s not too hard to stay completely credit-card and app free with this solution. You just have to make sure that you are near an open rail station/newsstand to purchase the smartcard initially (and I think even some of the grocery stores sell them) and then onwards have enough money on the smart card to get you to where you can top up from a kiosk. Given the rail coverage in Sweden it’s not too hard to do.
loeg 8y ago
There are transit systems that literally do not accept cash. The light rail trains, trolleys, and to some extent BRT all come to mind in Seattle.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  The light rail and trolleys in Seattle do accept cash at Westlake and similar large stations. Busses do as well...
  - loeg 8y ago
    You cannot board the light rail (nor BRT) and present cash. You have to buy an Orca card first, which are available in various locations, but chiefly, none of those locations are inside the light rail or BRT.
    - rcw4256 8y ago
      Ticket vending machines, which sell both ORCA cards and fare tickets, are available at every light rail station. For BRT, you can pay cash at the time of boarding.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    You can buy an orca card for $5 and then add money on it at multiple places.
  - panda888888 8y ago
    You can pay with cash at the ticket machines at all of the link stations, not just Westlake/large stations.
- rcw4256 8y ago
  Seattleite here. This is false. You can pay for all of the services you named with cash.
  - loeg 8y ago
coopr 8y ago
You clearly don't travel much and try to navigate different public transit systems. I travel domestically and internationally, and I always have cash - and it is almost always much more difficult than it should be to pay for public transit, just like the article says.
- azeotropic 8y ago
  woosh Most public transit riders in the U.S. don't travel much and don't try to navigate different public transit systems. This is not a problem that affects the real users of public transit in the U.S., and it's not what's holding back broader adoption of public transit.

jchw 8y ago

I haven't touched a physical dollar bill in multiple years.

hannasanarion 8y ago
So? ATMs are everywhere. If you need to access transit in a pinch, you can just take out some cash. It's the universal fallback payment.
- stephencoyner 8y ago
  Most transit systems do not provide any change. So if you go to an ATM and get $20, then break it for a $2.00 fare, you lose $18.00. That's not a solution.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    I bought a train ticket the other day from a vending machine. You put in a $20 and it spits out a ticket and your change. Systems that are incapable of doing this are designed poorly. That is not a shortcoming of cash or technology, it is a shortcoming of the transit operator.
    - stephencoyner 8y ago
      That's not the only issue. Cash also slows down the system. If I shove my crumpled dollar bill into the machine it will slow down the whole route, adding cost for the agency. The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple.
      - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
        This is why you have tickets or transit tokens. You can buy one on the bus/train, but then it costs 30% more and so nobody does that. Then you can buy a token using any payment method you like, whenever you like. Buy them from a vending machine at the train station with cash, order a month's worth on your credit card and have them shipped to your home, whatever you prefer. Dropping an exact value coin into a machine is a solved problem, is reliable, instantaneous, has automatic redundancy in high volume locations because there will be multiple machines, protects privacy, etc. > The agency then has to have staff to count the cash, then hire an armored car to take it to a bank. It's not that simple. That is not a significant cost. The service is paid a small amount of money to collect a much larger amount of money, and if you do more frequent pickups then less security is required and the ratio stays low. Meanwhile with cash you don't have to deal with chargebacks, computer intrusions, processing fees, etc.
      - rcw4256 8y ago
        Parent comment is referring to a ticket vending machine external to the coach, not an on-coach bill acceptor. It does not slow down the route.
- lemoncucumber 8y ago
  Have you ever taken a bus? Every bus I've ever taken doesn't give change, so it's not a matter of just getting a $20 bill from an ATM and being good to go. You have to have exact change (and often it's not an even dollar amount which is that much more of a pain). Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. If enough people pay cash, it slows down the bus significantly. We should be trying to get to the point where nobody pays cash when boarding buses for this reason alone.
  - darren_ 8y ago
    > Plus, people paying cash slow down the bus as they fumble for their wallets and count out their coins and such. Around here, on board the busses, they have completely automated machines that can read all the notes and dispense change automatically, they even seem pretty robust at it (crumpled bills, etc work fine) - they essentially as good a job as it's possible to do with cash. And it still takes agonizingly longer than tapping a transit card and everyone else on the bus hates you.
- astrodust 8y ago
  Yes, I too love paying exorbitant fees for the privilege of taking money out of an ATM. I pay $0 for debit transactions, but anywhere from $1 to $4 for an ATM withdrawal.
  - frosted-flakes 8y ago
    Use your bank's ATM then.
    - astrodust 8y ago
      This is so practical.
  - azeotropic 8y ago
    You should switch banks or join a credit union.
    - astrodust 8y ago
      Why? So I can take filthy money I never use out of an ATM I don't want to use?
- jchw 8y ago
  Not ever carrying cash is just as much a defense measure as it is a practical measure, though also almost everything supports some form of electronic payments, be it in the form of plastic or phone.
drivingmenuts 8y ago
Assuming you’re in the US, what do you do if you lose connectivity, like leaving an urban area? What’s your option if you break your phone? what options would you suggest for the unbanked or those without smartphones? Just because you haven’t handled actu al cash in a while doesn’t mean others haven’t. A large percentage of people still rely on cash transactions to get thru the day.
- jchw 8y ago
  No offense, but have you heard of credit/debit/check cards? I rarely use my phone for payments unless I forget my wallet. All I'm suggesting is that the "federal reserve note" is not as universal anymore. It's only practically useful if I have it.

xxpor 8y ago

London already doesn't allow cash on buses. There's huge costs in installing bill collectors. People paying cash on a bus slows everyone else down. Making everything electronic would solve a lot of issues.

nine_k 8y ago
Buying a smartcard or even magnetic day ticket for cash needs not be hard.
- notahacker 8y ago
  It isn't, but if you're wanting to board a bus you'll need to find an open newsagents or rail station nearby to sell you one. In which case the universal smartcard or app suddenly seems a lot more convenient
  - nine_k 8y ago
    I agree. I'm only trying to show that an electronic ticket and not being personally tracked are compatible, unlike suggested upthread. All it takes is to buy / refill an electronic ticket with cash.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
    Is finding an open newsagent/rail station really that big of a deal? In Sweden (in Skåne at least, since the rail/bus solutions are all regional there) you have both options. You can buy your tickets on an app that you scan on the bus or train, or you can buy a smart card anonymously with cash when there is an open newsstand/rail station and use that to beep onto trains and buses. So if you go the anonymous route when you need to top up your smart card with money you can do it with cash from a kiosk in an automated machine 24/7, so long as there is a kiosk around (every rail station has them). With a fair bit of planning it’s not too hard to stay completely credit-card and app free with this solution. You just have to make sure that you are near an open rail station/newsstand to purchase the smartcard initially (and I think even some of the grocery stores sell them) and then onwards have enough money on the smart card to get you to where you can top up from a kiosk. Given the rail coverage in Sweden it’s not too hard to do.

loeg 8y ago

There are transit systems that literally do not accept cash. The light rail trains, trolleys, and to some extent BRT all come to mind in Seattle.

StudentStuff 8y ago
The light rail and trolleys in Seattle do accept cash at Westlake and similar large stations. Busses do as well...
- loeg 8y ago
  You cannot board the light rail (nor BRT) and present cash. You have to buy an Orca card first, which are available in various locations, but chiefly, none of those locations are inside the light rail or BRT.
  - rcw4256 8y ago
    Ticket vending machines, which sell both ORCA cards and fare tickets, are available at every light rail station. For BRT, you can pay cash at the time of boarding.
- Latteland 8y ago
  You can buy an orca card for $5 and then add money on it at multiple places.
- panda888888 8y ago
  You can pay with cash at the ticket machines at all of the link stations, not just Westlake/large stations.
rcw4256 8y ago
Seattleite here. This is false. You can pay for all of the services you named with cash.
- loeg 8y ago

coopr 8y ago

You clearly don't travel much and try to navigate different public transit systems. I travel domestically and internationally, and I always have cash - and it is almost always much more difficult than it should be to pay for public transit, just like the article says.

azeotropic 8y ago
woosh Most public transit riders in the U.S. don't travel much and don't try to navigate different public transit systems. This is not a problem that affects the real users of public transit in the U.S., and it's not what's holding back broader adoption of public transit.