4 ms·

The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen

The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen to teach the Air Force and Army different skills on their own weapons because I was very good at what I did. I actually went to school for this as a secondary MOS. I can tell for a fact very few can adjust their dopes quickly when they lose fine motor skills in the chaos of battle or training. The Army regulars were shocked at the level we went to. The Rangers and Air Force PJs we worked with were always up at the top with their skills by dint of their job requirements. Even the famous Army AMU gives kudos to the Marines for the KD course. I've worked with several of them in exchange programs. The Army is largely an occupational force, while the Marines are an expeditionary force. Short of the Rangers/SF types, the missions are almost always different and the marksmanship skills are different, although they should be the same. The Marines value high levels of marksmanship more than the other services. It's not always about hop and pop. This is why the Corps copied the Russian doctrine of a DM in all platoons. In some Russian platoons, there is a DM in every squad, which is a fantastic idea. The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day.

leroy_masochist 8y ago
> The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  I assure you, my feelings are well intact. Everyone I worked with hated the 5.56. And yes, I've deployed, and to some odd places. Not only did our unit do the sandpit, but a few us, myself included, assisted the Philippine Marines with patrols in various locales in the PI. Try an M-14 out for size or even an AR-10. World of difference. The power factor between the two calibers is simply apples and oranges.
  - jki275 8y ago
    The rounds used today are not the rounds that were issued in Vietnam with the first M16s. Mk262 is quite effective and 5.56 is used by many militaries including the US. "power factor"(that's actually a gun game term as I recall, I've never heard a SEAL/Ranger/Marine or infantryman use it) has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, weight of ammunition an infantryman has to carry, or performance of the weapons. The AR-10 is notoriously finnicky and there is zero logistics train to support it anywhere in the world as it's not an issue weapon anywhere in the world, the M14 platform is far heavier than the M4 and has a variety of problems that were solved by the M16/M4, etc. etc. etc.
    - leroy_masochist 8y ago
      5.56 is also by far the best squad level belt fed weapon round. The precision of fires you can achieve at around 300-400m with a SAW by observing the beaten zone is pretty awesome, and that's largely a function of the low recoil of the 5.56 round. Furthermore, 1000 rounds of SAW ammo weighs like 30lbs less than 1000 rounds of 240 ammo. When it's 120 degrees out, that's non-trivial. And despite what Old Corps gun nuts might tell you, there is plenty of "power factor" (LOL) in the 5.56 round. It gets the job done....
      - jki275 8y ago
        I know Army SF Snipers who shoot customized 5.56 rifles, obviously using heavier rounds and such. It's a great round -- I love 5.56.
        leroy_masochist 8y ago
        Yeah there's a 75-grain 5.56 round tuned specifically for the HK416 that SOCOM is currently playing around with. Sweet setup. Don't know how widely it's fielded though.
        stirfrykitty 8y ago
        While the 5.56 does improve with time and is lighter, the 6MM or .30 is still better IMHO. Were I given a choice between carrying an extra few pounds and having better terminal ballistics, I'll take that. Being that the average Infantry loadout is still 6 30-round magazines and a pistol with 3 15-round magazines, I'll take the heavier 6MM or .30 since the weight difference is not that great. The M-249 SAW is a fine weapon and I've used them several times. They are good for what they are designed for, which is laying down suppressive fire for a squad. I still agree with the Russian doctrine of one DM per squad. If every squad had long(er) range capability, this would go a long way to helping squads not have to call in LR support or use the SAW so much. You're obviously an intelligent man, and I agree with you on some points, but you also have to remember that the Marines and Army do things differently. The tactics and weapons doctrines are much different. The Army does this better in some instances. I admire the FFL and how they do squad and platoon tactics. Those guys are extremely well trained, often better than us, and they don't tend to wait around for permission when the SHTF, something that has gotten many a soldier and Marine killed. Say what you want about the French or Russians, but they give their platoons much more leeway in combat ops. Americans, since Vietnam, need to have almost express permission to engage unless directly fired upon. Having said all of this, I'm not a war planner or an expert, just one man's experience and observations. We (Americans) can and should learn from other forces. They often do things better. For example, we send the 82nd to French Guiana for jungle warfare. We send troops (A & M) to Israel to learn CQC. The Philippine Marines are likewise excellent jungle fighters.

leroy_masochist 8y ago

> The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?

stirfrykitty 8y ago
I assure you, my feelings are well intact. Everyone I worked with hated the 5.56. And yes, I've deployed, and to some odd places. Not only did our unit do the sandpit, but a few us, myself included, assisted the Philippine Marines with patrols in various locales in the PI. Try an M-14 out for size or even an AR-10. World of difference. The power factor between the two calibers is simply apples and oranges.
- jki275 8y ago
  The rounds used today are not the rounds that were issued in Vietnam with the first M16s. Mk262 is quite effective and 5.56 is used by many militaries including the US. "power factor"(that's actually a gun game term as I recall, I've never heard a SEAL/Ranger/Marine or infantryman use it) has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, weight of ammunition an infantryman has to carry, or performance of the weapons. The AR-10 is notoriously finnicky and there is zero logistics train to support it anywhere in the world as it's not an issue weapon anywhere in the world, the M14 platform is far heavier than the M4 and has a variety of problems that were solved by the M16/M4, etc. etc. etc.
  - leroy_masochist 8y ago
    5.56 is also by far the best squad level belt fed weapon round. The precision of fires you can achieve at around 300-400m with a SAW by observing the beaten zone is pretty awesome, and that's largely a function of the low recoil of the 5.56 round. Furthermore, 1000 rounds of SAW ammo weighs like 30lbs less than 1000 rounds of 240 ammo. When it's 120 degrees out, that's non-trivial. And despite what Old Corps gun nuts might tell you, there is plenty of "power factor" (LOL) in the 5.56 round. It gets the job done....
    - jki275 8y ago
      I know Army SF Snipers who shoot customized 5.56 rifles, obviously using heavier rounds and such. It's a great round -- I love 5.56.
      - leroy_masochist 8y ago
        Yeah there's a 75-grain 5.56 round tuned specifically for the HK416 that SOCOM is currently playing around with. Sweet setup. Don't know how widely it's fielded though.
        stirfrykitty 8y ago
        While the 5.56 does improve with time and is lighter, the 6MM or .30 is still better IMHO. Were I given a choice between carrying an extra few pounds and having better terminal ballistics, I'll take that. Being that the average Infantry loadout is still 6 30-round magazines and a pistol with 3 15-round magazines, I'll take the heavier 6MM or .30 since the weight difference is not that great. The M-249 SAW is a fine weapon and I've used them several times. They are good for what they are designed for, which is laying down suppressive fire for a squad. I still agree with the Russian doctrine of one DM per squad. If every squad had long(er) range capability, this would go a long way to helping squads not have to call in LR support or use the SAW so much. You're obviously an intelligent man, and I agree with you on some points, but you also have to remember that the Marines and Army do things differently. The tactics and weapons doctrines are much different. The Army does this better in some instances. I admire the FFL and how they do squad and platoon tactics. Those guys are extremely well trained, often better than us, and they don't tend to wait around for permission when the SHTF, something that has gotten many a soldier and Marine killed. Say what you want about the French or Russians, but they give their platoons much more leeway in combat ops. Americans, since Vietnam, need to have almost express permission to engage unless directly fired upon. Having said all of this, I'm not a war planner or an expert, just one man's experience and observations. We (Americans) can and should learn from other forces. They often do things better. For example, we send the 82nd to French Guiana for jungle warfare. We send troops (A & M) to Israel to learn CQC. The Philippine Marines are likewise excellent jungle fighters.