4 ms·

> Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use. Do we care about achieving some kind of platonic ideal of proper marks

> Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use. Do we care about achieving some kind of platonic ideal of proper marksmanship instruction, or do we care about familiarizing Marines with the weapons system configuration they are going to actually use if they one day have the privilege of launching rounds down a two-way range? To be clear these are not mutually exclusive -- you still learn marksmanship when you qual with an ACOG, despite the protestations of Old Corps internet hardos -- but the latter should still be the priority. The whole KD range routine is outdated anyway, no matter how much nostalgia we may have for the RSOs' funny hats and the "youmayfirewhenyourTAAAAAAAAARGETappears" spiel delivered over the inevitably shitty loudspeaker.

jki275 8y ago
shooting on a pop up range is cool, but without the basic marksmanship fundamentals it's missing something. It's not a "platonic ideal", basic marksmanship is the foundation of all shooting. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be on a pop up range or any other. I'm not claiming that shooting with an acog is bad, and they're used plenty in training -- but an acog is a crutch if you don't know how to shoot. Anybody can shoot well with a scope, it takes real work to get hits at 500 yards with iron sights. Your fundamentals must be perfect, and that's the standard the USMC has always held.
stirfrykitty 8y ago
The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen to teach the Air Force and Army different skills on their own weapons because I was very good at what I did. I actually went to school for this as a secondary MOS. I can tell for a fact very few can adjust their dopes quickly when they lose fine motor skills in the chaos of battle or training. The Army regulars were shocked at the level we went to. The Rangers and Air Force PJs we worked with were always up at the top with their skills by dint of their job requirements. Even the famous Army AMU gives kudos to the Marines for the KD course. I've worked with several of them in exchange programs. The Army is largely an occupational force, while the Marines are an expeditionary force. Short of the Rangers/SF types, the missions are almost always different and the marksmanship skills are different, although they should be the same. The Marines value high levels of marksmanship more than the other services. It's not always about hop and pop. This is why the Corps copied the Russian doctrine of a DM in all platoons. In some Russian platoons, there is a DM in every squad, which is a fantastic idea. The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day.
- leroy_masochist 8y ago
  > The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    I assure you, my feelings are well intact. Everyone I worked with hated the 5.56. And yes, I've deployed, and to some odd places. Not only did our unit do the sandpit, but a few us, myself included, assisted the Philippine Marines with patrols in various locales in the PI. Try an M-14 out for size or even an AR-10. World of difference. The power factor between the two calibers is simply apples and oranges.
    - jki275 8y ago
      The rounds used today are not the rounds that were issued in Vietnam with the first M16s. Mk262 is quite effective and 5.56 is used by many militaries including the US. "power factor"(that's actually a gun game term as I recall, I've never heard a SEAL/Ranger/Marine or infantryman use it) has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, weight of ammunition an infantryman has to carry, or performance of the weapons. The AR-10 is notoriously finnicky and there is zero logistics train to support it anywhere in the world as it's not an issue weapon anywhere in the world, the M14 platform is far heavier than the M4 and has a variety of problems that were solved by the M16/M4, etc. etc. etc.
      - leroy_masochist 8y ago
        5.56 is also by far the best squad level belt fed weapon round. The precision of fires you can achieve at around 300-400m with a SAW by observing the beaten zone is pretty awesome, and that's largely a function of the low recoil of the 5.56 round. Furthermore, 1000 rounds of SAW ammo weighs like 30lbs less than 1000 rounds of 240 ammo. When it's 120 degrees out, that's non-trivial. And despite what Old Corps gun nuts might tell you, there is plenty of "power factor" (LOL) in the 5.56 round. It gets the job done....

jki275 8y ago

shooting on a pop up range is cool, but without the basic marksmanship fundamentals it's missing something. It's not a "platonic ideal", basic marksmanship is the foundation of all shooting. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be on a pop up range or any other. I'm not claiming that shooting with an acog is bad, and they're used plenty in training -- but an acog is a crutch if you don't know how to shoot. Anybody can shoot well with a scope, it takes real work to get hits at 500 yards with iron sights. Your fundamentals must be perfect, and that's the standard the USMC has always held.

stirfrykitty 8y ago

The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen to teach the Air Force and Army different skills on their own weapons because I was very good at what I did. I actually went to school for this as a secondary MOS. I can tell for a fact very few can adjust their dopes quickly when they lose fine motor skills in the chaos of battle or training. The Army regulars were shocked at the level we went to. The Rangers and Air Force PJs we worked with were always up at the top with their skills by dint of their job requirements. Even the famous Army AMU gives kudos to the Marines for the KD course. I've worked with several of them in exchange programs. The Army is largely an occupational force, while the Marines are an expeditionary force. Short of the Rangers/SF types, the missions are almost always different and the marksmanship skills are different, although they should be the same. The Marines value high levels of marksmanship more than the other services. It's not always about hop and pop. This is why the Corps copied the Russian doctrine of a DM in all platoons. In some Russian platoons, there is a DM in every squad, which is a fantastic idea. The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day.

leroy_masochist 8y ago
> The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  I assure you, my feelings are well intact. Everyone I worked with hated the 5.56. And yes, I've deployed, and to some odd places. Not only did our unit do the sandpit, but a few us, myself included, assisted the Philippine Marines with patrols in various locales in the PI. Try an M-14 out for size or even an AR-10. World of difference. The power factor between the two calibers is simply apples and oranges.
  - jki275 8y ago
    The rounds used today are not the rounds that were issued in Vietnam with the first M16s. Mk262 is quite effective and 5.56 is used by many militaries including the US. "power factor"(that's actually a gun game term as I recall, I've never heard a SEAL/Ranger/Marine or infantryman use it) has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, weight of ammunition an infantryman has to carry, or performance of the weapons. The AR-10 is notoriously finnicky and there is zero logistics train to support it anywhere in the world as it's not an issue weapon anywhere in the world, the M14 platform is far heavier than the M4 and has a variety of problems that were solved by the M16/M4, etc. etc. etc.
    - leroy_masochist 8y ago
      5.56 is also by far the best squad level belt fed weapon round. The precision of fires you can achieve at around 300-400m with a SAW by observing the beaten zone is pretty awesome, and that's largely a function of the low recoil of the 5.56 round. Furthermore, 1000 rounds of SAW ammo weighs like 30lbs less than 1000 rounds of 240 ammo. When it's 120 degrees out, that's non-trivial. And despite what Old Corps gun nuts might tell you, there is plenty of "power factor" (LOL) in the 5.56 round. It gets the job done....