7 ms·

The status of the Self language

42 points by russellallen 16y ago

loewenskind 16y ago
This is fantastic news. I'm really happy to see Self get picked up again. It was a breeding ground for a lot of great performance improvements we enjoy today. It will also be good to do some proper exploration of proper prototype based development.
ekidd 16y ago
In every argument about dynamic language performance for the last 15 years, Self has been the final word: "If Self can reach 1/4 to 1/2 the speed of native C code, why can't JavaScript? Why can't Ruby?" Well, JavaScript and Lua are slowly getting there, and Ruby might in a few more years. Even if Self could only reach that level of performance occasionally, it has been an inspiration to many others. It's great to hear that an old and storied project has been released as open source. The best of luck to them, and I look forward to reading their compiler source code some day!
- chrisbroadfoot 16y ago
  I'm actually surprised JS has made it this far. I'm not convinced it will go much further, though. Can someone convince me, please? :)
  - apl 16y ago
    I'll try. At some point in the past, you predicted (possibly implicitly, given that we're dealing with "surprise") that JS wouldn't reach the performance it has today. But it evidently did. So you're not very good at predicting the development JavaScript's performance profile. Currently you believe it can't go much further. Hence, given the historical precedent that we have, it probably will. There you go.
    - epo 16y ago
      What makes you think he was talking about Javascript's performance?
      - apl 16y ago
        Context? Besides, my argument doesn't really depend on whether you put "performance" or "popularity." Also, I was joking.
    - allertonm 16y ago
      Nicely done!
    - chrisbroadfoot 16y ago
      LOL! You make a compelling argument. It would be nice if the v8/spidermonkey/etc teams gave some insight into what kind of optimisations they have made/are making.
- dtf 16y ago
  Not just for inspiration, but for implementation too! Self's non-intuitive map optimisation has found its way into V8 and the latest PyPy: http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2010/11/efficiently-implementing-python-objects.html http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2010/11/efficiently-implementin...
smackay 16y ago
The article mentions the lingering fear of Smalltalk images but virtual machine images offering hope for the future. I experienced this with Smalltalk (Gemstone) apps quite some time ago and that feeling remained with Java on the desktop. What would it take to get non-native environments to integrate better and so gain better acceptance with end-users? Is the browser a better vector since end-users are more accepting of different web site styles rather than desktop app look and feels?
- dfox 16y ago
  He is not talking about non-native look and feel, but about image-based development. That is: you directly modify running state of VM and then save all of this state into giant file. Source code is often contained only in this giant binary file, or produced by some specialized tool later. This breaks many common development workflows, for example it is hard to integrate with common (file-based) version control systems.
  - duncanj 16y ago
    That's true. The problem is that source code is only a fraction of the knowledge contained in the system. In most source-code-based systems, you would write code for building a lookup table, or for reading one from storage. This code would be executed at application startup. In Smalltalk or image-based lisp, you simply make the table and save the image. Unfortunately, the source code now doesn't fully describe the system. Systems like ENVY are intended to provide a process for putting the data in the source.
sb 16y ago
To get a feeling for the Self language and what was (is) possible, you should (if you can, of course) take the time to watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ka4KY7TMTU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ka4KY7TMTU It contains a few gems, and is really worthwhile watching. (Disclaimer, I think Dave Ungar has done tremendous things for PLDI; interested people should definitely check out his UC-Berkeley PhD thesis of 1986, easily one of the best I have ever seen...)
- aubonpanzer 16y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation. PhD Dissertation Linked: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.pdf http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.p...
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  That video is very good, but don't forget the research papers from the Self project either (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/index.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/index.html) Particularly good: "An Efficient Implementation of Self" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/implementation.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/implementati...) "Making Pure Object-Oriented Languages Practical" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/practical.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/practical.ht...) "Organizing Programs Without Classes" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/organizing-programs.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/organizing-p...)
  - sb 16y ago
    Yeah, I know--it seems to be a recent pattern of mine to forget some links and add-on pointers... The papers are very good, in addition to these, I find the following to be particularly important (and very well written, too): - the classic PICs (polymorphic inline caching) paper (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/pics.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/pics.html) - Urs Hoelzle's PhD thesis (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/urs-thesis.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/urs-thesis.h...)
brazzy 16y ago
Am I the only one who thinks they're not exactly helping their cause with pretentious marketspeak like "an integrated intellectual and experiential computing narrative for supporting collective and individual creativity"?
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Normally, I'd agree, but in the context of Self, Smalltalk, Xerox PARC, and everything that have come out of them, it's justified.

42 points by russellallen 16y ago

This is fantastic news. I'm really happy to see Self get picked up again. It was a breeding ground for a lot of great performance improvements we enjoy today. It will also be good to do some proper exploration of proper prototype based development.

ekidd 16y ago

In every argument about dynamic language performance for the last 15 years, Self has been the final word: "If Self can reach 1/4 to 1/2 the speed of native C code, why can't JavaScript? Why can't Ruby?" Well, JavaScript and Lua are slowly getting there, and Ruby might in a few more years. Even if Self could only reach that level of performance occasionally, it has been an inspiration to many others. It's great to hear that an old and storied project has been released as open source. The best of luck to them, and I look forward to reading their compiler source code some day!

chrisbroadfoot 16y ago
I'm actually surprised JS has made it this far. I'm not convinced it will go much further, though. Can someone convince me, please? :)
- apl 16y ago
  I'll try. At some point in the past, you predicted (possibly implicitly, given that we're dealing with "surprise") that JS wouldn't reach the performance it has today. But it evidently did. So you're not very good at predicting the development JavaScript's performance profile. Currently you believe it can't go much further. Hence, given the historical precedent that we have, it probably will. There you go.
  - epo 16y ago
    What makes you think he was talking about Javascript's performance?
    - apl 16y ago
      Context? Besides, my argument doesn't really depend on whether you put "performance" or "popularity." Also, I was joking.
  - allertonm 16y ago
    Nicely done!
  - chrisbroadfoot 16y ago
    LOL! You make a compelling argument. It would be nice if the v8/spidermonkey/etc teams gave some insight into what kind of optimisations they have made/are making.
dtf 16y ago
Not just for inspiration, but for implementation too! Self's non-intuitive map optimisation has found its way into V8 and the latest PyPy: http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2010/11/efficiently-implementing-python-objects.html http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2010/11/efficiently-implementin...

smackay 16y ago

The article mentions the lingering fear of Smalltalk images but virtual machine images offering hope for the future. I experienced this with Smalltalk (Gemstone) apps quite some time ago and that feeling remained with Java on the desktop. What would it take to get non-native environments to integrate better and so gain better acceptance with end-users? Is the browser a better vector since end-users are more accepting of different web site styles rather than desktop app look and feels?

dfox 16y ago
He is not talking about non-native look and feel, but about image-based development. That is: you directly modify running state of VM and then save all of this state into giant file. Source code is often contained only in this giant binary file, or produced by some specialized tool later. This breaks many common development workflows, for example it is hard to integrate with common (file-based) version control systems.
- duncanj 16y ago
  That's true. The problem is that source code is only a fraction of the knowledge contained in the system. In most source-code-based systems, you would write code for building a lookup table, or for reading one from storage. This code would be executed at application startup. In Smalltalk or image-based lisp, you simply make the table and save the image. Unfortunately, the source code now doesn't fully describe the system. Systems like ENVY are intended to provide a process for putting the data in the source.

sb 16y ago

To get a feeling for the Self language and what was (is) possible, you should (if you can, of course) take the time to watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ka4KY7TMTU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ka4KY7TMTU It contains a few gems, and is really worthwhile watching. (Disclaimer, I think Dave Ungar has done tremendous things for PLDI; interested people should definitely check out his UC-Berkeley PhD thesis of 1986, easily one of the best I have ever seen...)

aubonpanzer 16y ago
Thanks for the recommendation. PhD Dissertation Linked: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.pdf http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.p...
silentbicycle 16y ago
That video is very good, but don't forget the research papers from the Self project either (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/index.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/index.html) Particularly good: "An Efficient Implementation of Self" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/implementation.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/implementati...) "Making Pure Object-Oriented Languages Practical" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/practical.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/practical.ht...) "Organizing Programs Without Classes" (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/organizing-programs.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/organizing-p...)
- sb 16y ago
  Yeah, I know--it seems to be a recent pattern of mine to forget some links and add-on pointers... The papers are very good, in addition to these, I find the following to be particularly important (and very well written, too): - the classic PICs (polymorphic inline caching) paper (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/pics.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/pics.html) - Urs Hoelzle's PhD thesis (http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/urs-thesis.html http://selflanguage.org/documentation/published/urs-thesis.h...)

brazzy 16y ago

Am I the only one who thinks they're not exactly helping their cause with pretentious marketspeak like "an integrated intellectual and experiential computing narrative for supporting collective and individual creativity"?

silentbicycle 16y ago
Normally, I'd agree, but in the context of Self, Smalltalk, Xerox PARC, and everything that have come out of them, it's justified.