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I see your point, though I'd suggest to you that for those who make it to the 0.1%, dropping down to top 20% does not feel like a "solid career" anymore. It fee

I see your point, though I'd suggest to you that for those who make it to the 0.1%, dropping down to top 20% does not feel like a "solid career" anymore. It feels the same as a 20%er dropping down to 80%. Success is very relative in that way.

bluGill 8y ago
I don't know of any objective measurement to say if someone is a 80% vs 20%. In sports and games there is a score which is objective and teams use statistics to see how much someone contributes compared to peers in similar positions on other teams.
- saas_sam 8y ago
  Does there need to be an objective measurement? Even in sports there is wide disagreement about which athletes are better than others, score and stats only gets you so far. The point is that if you are doing very well -- at anything -- your perspective on what is acceptable changes. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
  - bluGill 8y ago
    That there are many different ways to measure something objectively doesn't destroy my point. While they might differ on the exact position, they tend to put the same people near the top, and the same middle tier people in the middle. Any that don't come at least somewhat close to each other will be wiped out as those who use the better measure destroy those who use the worse to select their players.
usrusr 8y ago
Actually, most programmers would still comfortably think they are the brightest guy in the world even if they fell right through to the bottom of the bucket. There are no formal competitions ruthlessly declaring winners and losers to put us into our place. If everybody around me is shipping faster, better and more reliable they are probably just "doing it wrong". Cutting corners, not respecting the art or something like that, any excuse will do.
- saas_sam 8y ago
  We aren't discussing whether a given engineer would still view themselves as being smart. We're discussing how it feels to be at the very top of your field and then falling behind. Even if you are higher after the fall than you were before your rise, it will be very painful. I know more than one person who met with tragedy as a result of this. By their own standards of just a few years prior, they were doing amazingly well still. But by their new standards, inflated due to rapid success, they were doing terribly. One person took his life as a result.

bluGill 8y ago

I don't know of any objective measurement to say if someone is a 80% vs 20%. In sports and games there is a score which is objective and teams use statistics to see how much someone contributes compared to peers in similar positions on other teams.

saas_sam 8y ago
Does there need to be an objective measurement? Even in sports there is wide disagreement about which athletes are better than others, score and stats only gets you so far. The point is that if you are doing very well -- at anything -- your perspective on what is acceptable changes. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
- bluGill 8y ago
  That there are many different ways to measure something objectively doesn't destroy my point. While they might differ on the exact position, they tend to put the same people near the top, and the same middle tier people in the middle. Any that don't come at least somewhat close to each other will be wiped out as those who use the better measure destroy those who use the worse to select their players.

usrusr 8y ago

Actually, most programmers would still comfortably think they are the brightest guy in the world even if they fell right through to the bottom of the bucket. There are no formal competitions ruthlessly declaring winners and losers to put us into our place. If everybody around me is shipping faster, better and more reliable they are probably just "doing it wrong". Cutting corners, not respecting the art or something like that, any excuse will do.

saas_sam 8y ago
We aren't discussing whether a given engineer would still view themselves as being smart. We're discussing how it feels to be at the very top of your field and then falling behind. Even if you are higher after the fall than you were before your rise, it will be very painful. I know more than one person who met with tragedy as a result of this. By their own standards of just a few years prior, they were doing amazingly well still. But by their new standards, inflated due to rapid success, they were doing terribly. One person took his life as a result.