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I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This seems ab

by ohazi 8y ago

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners share my view. If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that nobody is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly like what's happening here. "You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do things differently here." The entire international community has criticized China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights differently. We know. Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some expertly measurable way. The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt, and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China. It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't understand each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.

theseadroid 8y ago
It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways. But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.
- ohazi 8y ago
  I see what you mean now, and I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say. On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue. HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.
- spectramax 8y ago
  "it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways" I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there is a universal understanding of what that difference is. George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other regions in China. He outlined it decades ago. If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988 and it ended in a massacre. I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.
  - theseadroid 8y ago
    >According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their proveties. Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes a great number of Chinese more anti-western. What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more exciting embracing democracy. Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making China better with those discussions or criticisms.

by ohazi 8y ago

theseadroid 8y ago

It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways. But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.

ohazi 8y ago
I see what you mean now, and I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say. On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue. HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.
spectramax 8y ago
"it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways" I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there is a universal understanding of what that difference is. George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other regions in China. He outlined it decades ago. If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988 and it ended in a massacre. I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.
- theseadroid 8y ago
  >According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their proveties. Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes a great number of Chinese more anti-western. What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more exciting embracing democracy. Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making China better with those discussions or criticisms.