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As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont

As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach. The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues. >what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world. The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.) I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.

yumraj 8y ago
> I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?
- theseadroid 8y ago
  I have very limited interactions with Uighur or Tibetan so I said I'm not expert on the issue. This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think) If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.
  - deogeo 8y ago
    > you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com The heavily surveilled and censored Chinese social media, that are filled with paid PRC posters? Sounds much more trustworthy than the Times.
    - yorwba 8y ago
      Social media may be subject to surveillance and censorship, but that doesn't stop people from discussing openly about posts being "harmonized" or certain keywords being "sensitive". There's no reason to suppose that finding genuine Uyghurs or Tibetans on there would be impossible.
ohazi 8y ago
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners share my view. If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that nobody is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly like what's happening here. "You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do things differently here." The entire international community has criticized China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights differently. We know. Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some expertly measurable way. The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt, and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China. It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't understand each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.
- theseadroid 8y ago
  It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways. But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.
  - ohazi 8y ago
    I see what you mean now, and I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say. On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue. HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.
xkcd-sucks 8y ago
But Xinjiang people aren't Chinese people, they're foreigners

yumraj 8y ago

> I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?

theseadroid 8y ago
I have very limited interactions with Uighur or Tibetan so I said I'm not expert on the issue. This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think) If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.
- deogeo 8y ago
  > you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com The heavily surveilled and censored Chinese social media, that are filled with paid PRC posters? Sounds much more trustworthy than the Times.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Social media may be subject to surveillance and censorship, but that doesn't stop people from discussing openly about posts being "harmonized" or certain keywords being "sensitive". There's no reason to suppose that finding genuine Uyghurs or Tibetans on there would be impossible.

ohazi 8y ago

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners share my view. If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that nobody is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly like what's happening here. "You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do things differently here." The entire international community has criticized China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights differently. We know. Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some expertly measurable way. The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt, and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China. It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't understand each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.

theseadroid 8y ago
It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways. But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.
- ohazi 8y ago
  I see what you mean now, and I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say. On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue. HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.

xkcd-sucks 8y ago

But Xinjiang people aren't Chinese people, they're foreigners