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What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly talking about

What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen. I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly. HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard. In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.

WillPostForFood 8y ago
https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combinator-set-china-arm-ex-baidu-executive-ceo https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combin... I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
- spectramax 8y ago
  We should totally criticize private prison industry and the whole racket - which we do. Journalists in America already talk about this, we debate, we fearlessly discuss. It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless. There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.
  - theseadroid 8y ago
    >Freedom of press is a real thing in USA. Interesting you think that way. From my observation in China government controls the media yes, but here capital controls the media no less. You can speak freely but the media wont necessarily distribute truth, they are free to distribute what makes the most money.
    - carapace 8y ago
      You're not wrong, but I believe the permissive system is much more robust than the restrictive system. However, everything I've ever read about China makes me realize that it is awesomely huge and that I have no idea what is actually required to keep the "Middle Kingdom" functioning. Even so, I think the CCP is making a big mistake with these camps. - - - - I wonder if the techno-fascist system might actually turn out to be more stable than the techno-democratic. (I don't like that but I've read enough sci-fi to be willing to consider it.) Certainly the "fake news" attack is so effective precisely because so much of Western "free" media actually IS fake news. (I read Chomsky at an impressionable age, to me the mainstream media in America has always had a blindingly obvious blackout policy for anything too embarrassing.) In any event, if the CCP can revive the Silk Road and partner with the nations of Africa, the Space Age may be Communist after all.
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    I agree, but it isn't useful to debate private prisons and the incarceration rate of minorities in relation to Chinese concentration camps, like it isn't useful to draw moral equivalencies between Japanese internment in WWII and Nazi concentration camps.
  - zachguo 8y ago
    Freedom of the press doesn't mean there's no media manipulation. Do you see articles criticizing the private prison industry and mass incarceration of black males twice a week?
- tropo 8y ago
  The USA did something about that prison population just yesterday, signing the FIRST STEP Act. Full transcript of announcement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-2019-prison-reform-summit-first-step-act-celebration/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-pres... Partial video included with this tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1113488660777906179 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11134886607779061...
theseadroid 8y ago
As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach. The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues. >what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world. The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.) I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.
- yumraj 8y ago
  > I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?
  - theseadroid 8y ago
    I have very limited interactions with Uighur or Tibetan so I said I'm not expert on the issue. This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think) If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.
iDontGiveAshit 8y ago
I don't care, dude. I'm not traveling to China. If I do, it's not to stay. But, really not even to visit. The place doesn't interest me. It means less than Delaware to me. It means less than Wyoming. It means less than Alaska. It means less than the North Pole. It's a world away, and I'm not interested in seeking conflict. I'm not interested in driving 30 minutes to deal with conflict at work. I'm not interested in conflict at the Taco Bell drive thru. I'm not here to fight. I'm not here to fight with you. I'm not here to fight about another country. I'm not here fight over what people should do about some place I have absolute zero direct involvement in. I'm not here to fight about places I do have direct involvement in. I'm not here to fight. I don't care about your stance. I don't care about right or wrong. I don't care what you think. I don't care who you are. I don't care.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
With China, you mean the regime of Xi ( and some of the Chinese culture => foreigners are doomed to fail). Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU) You mention Project Dragonfly, but have you ever considered that it could actually save lives? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181 Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).
gringoDan 8y ago
I think that there is a strange phenomenon of Whataboutism [0] that takes place in intellectual circles anytime that someone criticizes a group they are not a part of (country, religion, etc). We should be encouraging rational, respectful critiques of society to improve the world - be that in China, the US, wherever. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- o10449366 8y ago
  Please don't take this personally, I understand the point you're making in relation to the parent, but your comment reminds me of one of my least favorite aspects of HN: Comments that contribute nothing to the discussion and only observe that another comment employs some logical fallacy that they stumbled upon on Wikipedia last week. Read any recent thread on Facebook's move to censor white supremacy and you'll see dozens of "That's a slippery slope fallacy!!! [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope" without actually addressing the argument or how the fallacy even fits. It reminds me of high school debate team.
jaxbot 8y ago
What you are referring to is your comments on my question about Silicon Valley members working in China: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500740 This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic. I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it. Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think. Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.
- spectramax 8y ago
  No, it wasn’t me.
o10449366 8y ago
I don't think people on HN are afraid to criticize the Chinese government. I just don't think they understand how bad the situation is. This is partially because the Chinese government has been extremely successful at censoring both domestic and international press, and partially because most people just don't care. I hate the discussions on Chinese culture on Reddit because the "discussions" are really just westerners regurgitating common myths and stereotypes they read elsewhere on Reddit. I can't count the number of comments I've read on HN in the past few months from white Googlers who have never been to China linking some medium post from a Chinese citizen "Asking for Google to come to China", as if that justifies Dragonfly. This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  > In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class Don’t worry, American schools substantially whitewash (or sometimes just skip altogether) a long history of racist and often horrific American government policy towards Native Americans, Africans, Latin Americans, Catholic Europeans, Jews, Filipinos, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, Middle Easterners, ... (Not to mention current ongoing racist policies toward many countries and people.) There’s nothing unique about the way we specifically gloss over treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII. Similarly, there is plenty of “casual racism” (not to mention the decidedly not-casual sort) toward a wide variety of groups today. Try talking to people from pretty much any kind of ethnic or religious minority and you’ll hear ugly stories. I wouldn’t say Americans on the whole care especially more or less about human rights in North Korea or for ethnic minorities in China compared to e.g. Yemen, Turkey, Ukraine, South Sudan, or Honduras. Which is to say, some Americans care a whole lot about human rights around the world, and most couldn’t be bothered. Before we rag on Americans too much though, it’s not clear that people or governments in other countries are especially more enlightened.
throwawaybeijj 8y ago
Yeah I think the moderators were influenced partly by Sam Altman’s persistence to start YC China, and now with the YC china running. There is something all of us on HN can do though. Stop buying stuff from China Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
throwaway29875 8y ago
I have to disagree with this. I think that people are afraid to "clarify the situation" in China because they will be downvoted or harassed. It's the reason I'm using a throwaway. What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason. First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks. Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers." Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists." Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed. I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there: https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-absolute-surveillance-state/ https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-abso...

WillPostForFood 8y ago

https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combinator-set-china-arm-ex-baidu-executive-ceo https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combin... I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.

spectramax 8y ago
We should totally criticize private prison industry and the whole racket - which we do. Journalists in America already talk about this, we debate, we fearlessly discuss. It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless. There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.
- theseadroid 8y ago
  >Freedom of press is a real thing in USA. Interesting you think that way. From my observation in China government controls the media yes, but here capital controls the media no less. You can speak freely but the media wont necessarily distribute truth, they are free to distribute what makes the most money.
  - carapace 8y ago
    You're not wrong, but I believe the permissive system is much more robust than the restrictive system. However, everything I've ever read about China makes me realize that it is awesomely huge and that I have no idea what is actually required to keep the "Middle Kingdom" functioning. Even so, I think the CCP is making a big mistake with these camps. - - - - I wonder if the techno-fascist system might actually turn out to be more stable than the techno-democratic. (I don't like that but I've read enough sci-fi to be willing to consider it.) Certainly the "fake news" attack is so effective precisely because so much of Western "free" media actually IS fake news. (I read Chomsky at an impressionable age, to me the mainstream media in America has always had a blindingly obvious blackout policy for anything too embarrassing.) In any event, if the CCP can revive the Silk Road and partner with the nations of Africa, the Space Age may be Communist after all.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  I agree, but it isn't useful to debate private prisons and the incarceration rate of minorities in relation to Chinese concentration camps, like it isn't useful to draw moral equivalencies between Japanese internment in WWII and Nazi concentration camps.
- zachguo 8y ago
  Freedom of the press doesn't mean there's no media manipulation. Do you see articles criticizing the private prison industry and mass incarceration of black males twice a week?
tropo 8y ago
The USA did something about that prison population just yesterday, signing the FIRST STEP Act. Full transcript of announcement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-2019-prison-reform-summit-first-step-act-celebration/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-pres... Partial video included with this tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1113488660777906179 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11134886607779061...

theseadroid 8y ago

As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach. The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues. >what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world. The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.) I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.

yumraj 8y ago
> I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?
- theseadroid 8y ago
  I have very limited interactions with Uighur or Tibetan so I said I'm not expert on the issue. This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think) If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.

iDontGiveAshit 8y ago

I don't care, dude. I'm not traveling to China. If I do, it's not to stay. But, really not even to visit. The place doesn't interest me. It means less than Delaware to me. It means less than Wyoming. It means less than Alaska. It means less than the North Pole. It's a world away, and I'm not interested in seeking conflict. I'm not interested in driving 30 minutes to deal with conflict at work. I'm not interested in conflict at the Taco Bell drive thru. I'm not here to fight. I'm not here to fight with you. I'm not here to fight about another country. I'm not here fight over what people should do about some place I have absolute zero direct involvement in. I'm not here to fight about places I do have direct involvement in. I'm not here to fight. I don't care about your stance. I don't care about right or wrong. I don't care what you think. I don't care who you are. I don't care.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

With China, you mean the regime of Xi ( and some of the Chinese culture => foreigners are doomed to fail). Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU) You mention Project Dragonfly, but have you ever considered that it could actually save lives? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181 Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).

gringoDan 8y ago

I think that there is a strange phenomenon of Whataboutism [0] that takes place in intellectual circles anytime that someone criticizes a group they are not a part of (country, religion, etc). We should be encouraging rational, respectful critiques of society to improve the world - be that in China, the US, wherever. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

o10449366 8y ago
Please don't take this personally, I understand the point you're making in relation to the parent, but your comment reminds me of one of my least favorite aspects of HN: Comments that contribute nothing to the discussion and only observe that another comment employs some logical fallacy that they stumbled upon on Wikipedia last week. Read any recent thread on Facebook's move to censor white supremacy and you'll see dozens of "That's a slippery slope fallacy!!! [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope" without actually addressing the argument or how the fallacy even fits. It reminds me of high school debate team.

jaxbot 8y ago

What you are referring to is your comments on my question about Silicon Valley members working in China: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500740 This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic. I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it. Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think. Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.

spectramax 8y ago
No, it wasn’t me.

o10449366 8y ago

I don't think people on HN are afraid to criticize the Chinese government. I just don't think they understand how bad the situation is. This is partially because the Chinese government has been extremely successful at censoring both domestic and international press, and partially because most people just don't care. I hate the discussions on Chinese culture on Reddit because the "discussions" are really just westerners regurgitating common myths and stereotypes they read elsewhere on Reddit. I can't count the number of comments I've read on HN in the past few months from white Googlers who have never been to China linking some medium post from a Chinese citizen "Asking for Google to come to China", as if that justifies Dragonfly. This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.

jacobolus 8y ago
> In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class Don’t worry, American schools substantially whitewash (or sometimes just skip altogether) a long history of racist and often horrific American government policy towards Native Americans, Africans, Latin Americans, Catholic Europeans, Jews, Filipinos, Pacific Islanders, Chinese, Middle Easterners, ... (Not to mention current ongoing racist policies toward many countries and people.) There’s nothing unique about the way we specifically gloss over treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII. Similarly, there is plenty of “casual racism” (not to mention the decidedly not-casual sort) toward a wide variety of groups today. Try talking to people from pretty much any kind of ethnic or religious minority and you’ll hear ugly stories. I wouldn’t say Americans on the whole care especially more or less about human rights in North Korea or for ethnic minorities in China compared to e.g. Yemen, Turkey, Ukraine, South Sudan, or Honduras. Which is to say, some Americans care a whole lot about human rights around the world, and most couldn’t be bothered. Before we rag on Americans too much though, it’s not clear that people or governments in other countries are especially more enlightened.

throwawaybeijj 8y ago

Yeah I think the moderators were influenced partly by Sam Altman’s persistence to start YC China, and now with the YC china running. There is something all of us on HN can do though. Stop buying stuff from China Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

throwaway29875 8y ago

I have to disagree with this. I think that people are afraid to "clarify the situation" in China because they will be downvoted or harassed. It's the reason I'm using a throwaway. What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason. First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks. Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers." Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists." Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed. I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there: https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-absolute-surveillance-state/ https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-abso...