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The USMC is significantly more. Everyone in the USMC is first and foremost a rifleman. Your actual MOS is secondary. The other branches are the opposite. You do

The USMC is significantly more. Everyone in the USMC is first and foremost a rifleman. Your actual MOS is secondary. The other branches are the opposite. You do your job primarily with weapons training and use a far outside possibility. The USMC has the most strenuous small arms requirements outside of actual special forces. It starts in boot camp and you must qualify every year until reaching E-8 or 0-5, respectively. The Corps is HUGE on marksmanship, and Marines are expected to hit targets out to 500M with iron sights, although these days, the kids get ACOGS, which I didn't have. Pistol out to 25M. Your promotion, in part, depends on how well you do. No one wants to go unq (unqualified) or not much better, wear the lowest level, which is Marksman (referred to as Pizza Box) due to the shape of the medal one must wear on their uniform.

leroy_masochist 8y ago
> Everyone in the USMC is first and foremost a rifleman. Your actual MOS is secondary. The other branches are the opposite. Maybe put down the POG Kool-Ade and take a deep breath? > although these days, the kids get ACOGS, which I didn't have If you were the Commandant would you change this? Everyone has an ACOG on their weapon in the fleet; doesn't it make sense to train like you fight?
- jki275 8y ago
  He's exactly correct. The ACOG vs iron sight thing has been a discussion for a long time. Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use.
  - leroy_masochist 8y ago
    > Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use. Do we care about achieving some kind of platonic ideal of proper marksmanship instruction, or do we care about familiarizing Marines with the weapons system configuration they are going to actually use if they one day have the privilege of launching rounds down a two-way range? To be clear these are not mutually exclusive -- you still learn marksmanship when you qual with an ACOG, despite the protestations of Old Corps internet hardos -- but the latter should still be the priority. The whole KD range routine is outdated anyway, no matter how much nostalgia we may have for the RSOs' funny hats and the "youmayfirewhenyourTAAAAAAAAARGETappears" spiel delivered over the inevitably shitty loudspeaker.
    - jki275 8y ago
      shooting on a pop up range is cool, but without the basic marksmanship fundamentals it's missing something. It's not a "platonic ideal", basic marksmanship is the foundation of all shooting. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be on a pop up range or any other. I'm not claiming that shooting with an acog is bad, and they're used plenty in training -- but an acog is a crutch if you don't know how to shoot. Anybody can shoot well with a scope, it takes real work to get hits at 500 yards with iron sights. Your fundamentals must be perfect, and that's the standard the USMC has always held.
    - stirfrykitty 8y ago
      The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen to teach the Air Force and Army different skills on their own weapons because I was very good at what I did. I actually went to school for this as a secondary MOS. I can tell for a fact very few can adjust their dopes quickly when they lose fine motor skills in the chaos of battle or training. The Army regulars were shocked at the level we went to. The Rangers and Air Force PJs we worked with were always up at the top with their skills by dint of their job requirements. Even the famous Army AMU gives kudos to the Marines for the KD course. I've worked with several of them in exchange programs. The Army is largely an occupational force, while the Marines are an expeditionary force. Short of the Rangers/SF types, the missions are almost always different and the marksmanship skills are different, although they should be the same. The Marines value high levels of marksmanship more than the other services. It's not always about hop and pop. This is why the Corps copied the Russian doctrine of a DM in all platoons. In some Russian platoons, there is a DM in every squad, which is a fantastic idea. The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day.
      - leroy_masochist 8y ago
        > The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  First off, have you served? In the USMC? If not, you don't get an opinion. If you have, then your opinion is just that. I personally have had tech items fail where iron sights were better. If Marines get used to the ACOG and never use the iron sights, this is a massive problem. You fall to your lowest level of training. Train like you fight, yes, but learn to master both all the time. If the ACOG fails, you should be able to detach and change your dope in less than 10 seconds. If not, you need more training.
  - leroy_masochist 8y ago
    > First off, have you served? In the USMC? If not, you don't get an opinion. This is the essence of veteran entitlement that I absolutely loathe. Non-veterans absolutely get to have an opinion about all things military, and they should, given civilian control of DoD. I'm embarrassed by fellow vets like you, USMC or not, who try to lord the fact that they served over others who want to contribute to military-related discussions.
    - stirfrykitty 8y ago
      You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. I know weapon systems like my own hand. If you don't, then everything you offer is simply an opinion, not a fact. And, in my OPINION, civilian control of the military is one of the reasons we haven't won a war since WWII.
      - leroy_masochist 8y ago
        > in my OPINION, civilian control of the military is one of the reasons we haven't won a war since WWII So....you're saying that we should be ruled by a military junta? You're aware that civilians have controlled the US military for as long as the US has been an independent country, right?

leroy_masochist 8y ago

> Everyone in the USMC is first and foremost a rifleman. Your actual MOS is secondary. The other branches are the opposite. Maybe put down the POG Kool-Ade and take a deep breath? > although these days, the kids get ACOGS, which I didn't have If you were the Commandant would you change this? Everyone has an ACOG on their weapon in the fleet; doesn't it make sense to train like you fight?

jki275 8y ago
He's exactly correct. The ACOG vs iron sight thing has been a discussion for a long time. Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use.
- leroy_masochist 8y ago
  > Basic marksmanship is better taught with iron sights, scopes are awesome for real use. Do we care about achieving some kind of platonic ideal of proper marksmanship instruction, or do we care about familiarizing Marines with the weapons system configuration they are going to actually use if they one day have the privilege of launching rounds down a two-way range? To be clear these are not mutually exclusive -- you still learn marksmanship when you qual with an ACOG, despite the protestations of Old Corps internet hardos -- but the latter should still be the priority. The whole KD range routine is outdated anyway, no matter how much nostalgia we may have for the RSOs' funny hats and the "youmayfirewhenyourTAAAAAAAAARGETappears" spiel delivered over the inevitably shitty loudspeaker.
  - jki275 8y ago
    shooting on a pop up range is cool, but without the basic marksmanship fundamentals it's missing something. It's not a "platonic ideal", basic marksmanship is the foundation of all shooting. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be on a pop up range or any other. I'm not claiming that shooting with an acog is bad, and they're used plenty in training -- but an acog is a crutch if you don't know how to shoot. Anybody can shoot well with a scope, it takes real work to get hits at 500 yards with iron sights. Your fundamentals must be perfect, and that's the standard the USMC has always held.
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. I was also chosen to teach the Air Force and Army different skills on their own weapons because I was very good at what I did. I actually went to school for this as a secondary MOS. I can tell for a fact very few can adjust their dopes quickly when they lose fine motor skills in the chaos of battle or training. The Army regulars were shocked at the level we went to. The Rangers and Air Force PJs we worked with were always up at the top with their skills by dint of their job requirements. Even the famous Army AMU gives kudos to the Marines for the KD course. I've worked with several of them in exchange programs. The Army is largely an occupational force, while the Marines are an expeditionary force. Short of the Rangers/SF types, the missions are almost always different and the marksmanship skills are different, although they should be the same. The Marines value high levels of marksmanship more than the other services. It's not always about hop and pop. This is why the Corps copied the Russian doctrine of a DM in all platoons. In some Russian platoons, there is a DM in every squad, which is a fantastic idea. The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day.
    - leroy_masochist 8y ago
      > The KD course is not outdated. I was one of those NCOs with the pith helmet for 18 months. Not only the KD course, but also the pistol course. Sorry for hurting your feelings with my last post. > The little 5.56 is largely a poodle shooter unless you're within 100M. .30 any day, every day. Served me just fine in OIF. You ever deploy or are you getting your info from Soldier of Fortune?
stirfrykitty 8y ago
First off, have you served? In the USMC? If not, you don't get an opinion. If you have, then your opinion is just that. I personally have had tech items fail where iron sights were better. If Marines get used to the ACOG and never use the iron sights, this is a massive problem. You fall to your lowest level of training. Train like you fight, yes, but learn to master both all the time. If the ACOG fails, you should be able to detach and change your dope in less than 10 seconds. If not, you need more training.
- leroy_masochist 8y ago
  > First off, have you served? In the USMC? If not, you don't get an opinion. This is the essence of veteran entitlement that I absolutely loathe. Non-veterans absolutely get to have an opinion about all things military, and they should, given civilian control of DoD. I'm embarrassed by fellow vets like you, USMC or not, who try to lord the fact that they served over others who want to contribute to military-related discussions.
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. I know weapon systems like my own hand. If you don't, then everything you offer is simply an opinion, not a fact. And, in my OPINION, civilian control of the military is one of the reasons we haven't won a war since WWII.
    - leroy_masochist 8y ago
      > in my OPINION, civilian control of the military is one of the reasons we haven't won a war since WWII So....you're saying that we should be ruled by a military junta? You're aware that civilians have controlled the US military for as long as the US has been an independent country, right?