6 ms·

Does it make any difference when US companies are participating in PRISM anyway?

by titanix2 8y ago

farresito 8y ago
As an European, I would rather get spied on by the US than by China.
- ianai 8y ago
  The US does not have execution vans for dissidents whereas China does, for instance.
  - scottie_m 8y ago
    They also don’t have re-education camps for religious minorities, a social credit score, and no rule of law. The U.S. is deeply flawed, especially when you take their war on drugs into account, but I’d still prefer them over China any day of the week.
  - ngcc_hk 8y ago
    And we can “harm” by Facebook google outside of great china e-wall. Let us not be in the blessed communist state.
  - throwaway29875 8y ago
    The US does have execution drones that target people based on metadata [1]. > In 2014, former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden said in a public debate, “We kill people based on metadata.” > According to multiple reports and leaks, death-by-metadata could be triggered, without even knowing the target’s name, if too many derogatory checks appear on their profile. “Armed military aged males” exhibiting suspicious behavior in the wrong place can become targets, as can someone “seen to be giving out orders.” Such mathematics-based assassinations have come to be known as “signature strikes.” 1. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-to-survive-americas-kill-list-699334/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - cf498 8y ago
    I am not a Chinese dissident. China is not going around the globe putting people in execution vans there. So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited. The possible impact on my life is in no way comparable to the possible impact of the same by the US. I would like to not be mistook landing on no-fly lists, being banned from international banking as well as from making business with any company.
    - CharlesColeman 8y ago
      > I am not a Chinese dissident....So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited. I would recommend that you think of yourself as a dissident, including as a foreign dissident, even if you aren't actually one. I think that attitude can be a great source of moral guidance and perspective.
      - cf498 8y ago
        Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance. The possible effects are rather clear cut, which is why I dont understand why anyone would views this differently. I understand that for a lot of people this becomes a moral question quickly, but thats not whats up to debate here. Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe. I also have less to worry about from North Korean surveillance, simply because I am not a north Korean. We dont have that luxus with the US, despite not being a US citizen. Or more fittingly because we are not US citizens.
        CharlesColeman 8y ago
        > Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance. > Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe. That's a bizarre question and pretty self-centered. Also, as a European, if you're trying to somehow choose between one or the other, wouldn't you want to most strongly oppose the surveillance run by the regime that's least aligned to European/Western values?
- Drakim 8y ago
  I'm actually not sure I agree. I have the nagging feeling that China spying on me is most likely to have zero consequences for my daily life, while the US spying on me can get me on a no-fly list or something.
  - azinman2 8y ago
    Well when they copy and outcompete all your industries, then I think you’d notice some consequences.
    - lexs 8y ago
      The US has been caught doing industrial espionage as well, more of a pest or cholera situation here.
      - azinman2 8y ago
        The US is not regularly directing its hackers to break into the worlds companies to steal all their IP and then put it into play across all industries. The amount of blatant copying is insane... just head to any market in Asia to see the abundant fakes that flood the markets. There is no comparison.
      - ineedasername 8y ago
        False equivalency. The US has not been caught on the scale of China and its forced tech transfer policies. US may have some limited targeted activity, but they aren't wholesale strip mining industry IP.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - aurailious 8y ago
        This is an amazing case of whataboutism.
        8y ago
- ummonk 8y ago
  Really? I would expect China to not have much interest in you individually, whereas the US might.
- microdrum 8y ago
  As an American, I would rather get spied on by the US than by China, too. All of the pro-China downvoters on this and many other HN threads.... I do not understand you. I recall from my political sciences courses in university that a hallmark of progressivism was being against imperialism. The basic idea here is that imperialism involves deliberately expanding a government's control of physical territory through violence, subjugation, cultural appropriation, theft, and many other means. The idea why imperialism is a moral BAD was that it inextricably involves suppressing the human rights of others. Now, China is an imperialist power. Full stop. It wants more land and more people. It has killed and is killing to get more land and more people. The same cannot be said of the US. So why the constant whataboutism on China issues here on HN?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - nativeimigrant 8y ago
    As a human being... I'm concerned by so much defeatism on this issue. If someone is spying on you and you are just a civilian, it's bad full stop! I get the feeling that most of the comments are just apologetic to the US govt because the hypocrisy is just sooooo obvious As for imperialism... How many countries has US invaded compared to China? Don't be silly
  - mola 8y ago
    I'm not sure the US isn't imperialist by your definition. At the very least the second Iraqi war hints to the contrary. It appears the main agenda there was a grab for oil and not a security threat. Not to mention its behavior in South America during the cold war. Now, I prefer the US over China, because its ideals are at least against imperialism and pro human rights, democracy and freedom. They might not always do what they preach, but these ideals combined with soft power approach, is (was?) A source of good. (If only they didn't hate socialism so much, and didn't prefer corporation freedom over human freedom, it would have been even better... well, let's hope the EU can survive)
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    The US is not an imperialist power? Are you kidding me? We have military bases and troops all over the world. Our black ops interferes in the internal affairs of any country it wants with virtually no oversight. We use our economic might to twist arms and bend other countries to our will. We have a ridiculous treaty with Cuba that cedes use of Guantanamo Bay to us in perpetuity for $2000 a year. We pretty much invaded Iraq for the oil. No one believes they fucked up so badly that they thought there were WMDs and then whoops couldn’t find any! And then there's Puerto Rico. We won't let them become a state despite multiple referendums with the outcome in favor of statehood. Instead we keep them pretty much in colony status. Sounds great for us. Sucks for them when they have no right to provide input into their own national government. The administration is threatening to invade Venezuela because they don’t like the government. And to go straight to your specific definition of imperialism, the only thing you have is that we are done conquering. And now that we’re done we get to tell others that they can’t do it right? I mean really there are good arguments that can be made here but “The same cannot be said of the US” is not one of them. We just make it look cleaner.
- rfwhyte 8y ago
  As a Canadian I would tend to agree. My take on things is that while both countries spy, the reasons they do it are what matters. Broadly speaking the US spies to prevent terrorism and violence, where as China spies to steal IP, control their international diaspora for political purposes at home and abroad, and to destabilize democracies. The CCP worldview is incredibly cynical.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    US did, and still tries to destabilize countries. See Iraq, covert CIA operations. It’s well within the norm. I think what you mean is that The US is Canada’s ally so being spied on by the US is less of a risk.
  - OrgNet 8y ago
    The US says that it spies to prevent terrorism, violence, etc... but that is just a pretext to justify it. The main reason is to stay the richest.
- nativeimigrant 8y ago
  As a European? What does that mean? It's not like it's a homogeneous continent? Also as a European ... actually as a human ... I'd very much prefer to prohibit anyone spying on me. Europeans have seen first hand what totalitarianism means, even if it masquerades itself as freedom ;)
lern_too_spel 8y ago
The only companies that participate in PRISM are government security contractors. You appear not to have understood what PRISM is, which is astonishing given how much documentation we have about it.
oscargrouch 8y ago
Reading the answers to your comment, can get pretty depressive. As people are just taking spionage for granted, trying to choose who we would want to let spy on us. Please, can we try, or at least pretend we are trying to defend our rights to privacy of data that should be private? I dont want to have to choose who should spy on me. We are entering into this dystopian reality, and somehow we are fine with it.. but there will be a time, we will understand it's too late, and theres no going back. I hope we wake up sooner than that. Dont just accept it as it is, it will have severe consequences to our future, if we let them to have all of our data, because this means complete control of our lives and the end of the little free will we still have. It feels to me like choosing which mob lord would be the less evil to me.. We need to understand we dont actually need to make this kind of choice. Resist. Dont let them have it.

Does it make any difference when US companies are participating in PRISM anyway?

farresito 8y ago

As an European, I would rather get spied on by the US than by China.

ianai 8y ago
The US does not have execution vans for dissidents whereas China does, for instance.
- scottie_m 8y ago
  They also don’t have re-education camps for religious minorities, a social credit score, and no rule of law. The U.S. is deeply flawed, especially when you take their war on drugs into account, but I’d still prefer them over China any day of the week.
- ngcc_hk 8y ago
  And we can “harm” by Facebook google outside of great china e-wall. Let us not be in the blessed communist state.
- throwaway29875 8y ago
  The US does have execution drones that target people based on metadata [1]. > In 2014, former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden said in a public debate, “We kill people based on metadata.” > According to multiple reports and leaks, death-by-metadata could be triggered, without even knowing the target’s name, if too many derogatory checks appear on their profile. “Armed military aged males” exhibiting suspicious behavior in the wrong place can become targets, as can someone “seen to be giving out orders.” Such mathematics-based assassinations have come to be known as “signature strikes.” 1. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-to-survive-americas-kill-list-699334/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- cf498 8y ago
  I am not a Chinese dissident. China is not going around the globe putting people in execution vans there. So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited. The possible impact on my life is in no way comparable to the possible impact of the same by the US. I would like to not be mistook landing on no-fly lists, being banned from international banking as well as from making business with any company.
  - CharlesColeman 8y ago
    > I am not a Chinese dissident....So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited. I would recommend that you think of yourself as a dissident, including as a foreign dissident, even if you aren't actually one. I think that attitude can be a great source of moral guidance and perspective.
    - cf498 8y ago
      Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance. The possible effects are rather clear cut, which is why I dont understand why anyone would views this differently. I understand that for a lot of people this becomes a moral question quickly, but thats not whats up to debate here. Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe. I also have less to worry about from North Korean surveillance, simply because I am not a north Korean. We dont have that luxus with the US, despite not being a US citizen. Or more fittingly because we are not US citizens.
      - CharlesColeman 8y ago
        > Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance. > Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe. That's a bizarre question and pretty self-centered. Also, as a European, if you're trying to somehow choose between one or the other, wouldn't you want to most strongly oppose the surveillance run by the regime that's least aligned to European/Western values?
Drakim 8y ago
I'm actually not sure I agree. I have the nagging feeling that China spying on me is most likely to have zero consequences for my daily life, while the US spying on me can get me on a no-fly list or something.
- azinman2 8y ago
  Well when they copy and outcompete all your industries, then I think you’d notice some consequences.
  - lexs 8y ago
    The US has been caught doing industrial espionage as well, more of a pest or cholera situation here.
    - azinman2 8y ago
      The US is not regularly directing its hackers to break into the worlds companies to steal all their IP and then put it into play across all industries. The amount of blatant copying is insane... just head to any market in Asia to see the abundant fakes that flood the markets. There is no comparison.
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      False equivalency. The US has not been caught on the scale of China and its forced tech transfer policies. US may have some limited targeted activity, but they aren't wholesale strip mining industry IP.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - aurailious 8y ago
      This is an amazing case of whataboutism.
      - 8y ago
ummonk 8y ago
Really? I would expect China to not have much interest in you individually, whereas the US might.
microdrum 8y ago
As an American, I would rather get spied on by the US than by China, too. All of the pro-China downvoters on this and many other HN threads.... I do not understand you. I recall from my political sciences courses in university that a hallmark of progressivism was being against imperialism. The basic idea here is that imperialism involves deliberately expanding a government's control of physical territory through violence, subjugation, cultural appropriation, theft, and many other means. The idea why imperialism is a moral BAD was that it inextricably involves suppressing the human rights of others. Now, China is an imperialist power. Full stop. It wants more land and more people. It has killed and is killing to get more land and more people. The same cannot be said of the US. So why the constant whataboutism on China issues here on HN?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- nativeimigrant 8y ago
  As a human being... I'm concerned by so much defeatism on this issue. If someone is spying on you and you are just a civilian, it's bad full stop! I get the feeling that most of the comments are just apologetic to the US govt because the hypocrisy is just sooooo obvious As for imperialism... How many countries has US invaded compared to China? Don't be silly
- mola 8y ago
  I'm not sure the US isn't imperialist by your definition. At the very least the second Iraqi war hints to the contrary. It appears the main agenda there was a grab for oil and not a security threat. Not to mention its behavior in South America during the cold war. Now, I prefer the US over China, because its ideals are at least against imperialism and pro human rights, democracy and freedom. They might not always do what they preach, but these ideals combined with soft power approach, is (was?) A source of good. (If only they didn't hate socialism so much, and didn't prefer corporation freedom over human freedom, it would have been even better... well, let's hope the EU can survive)
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  The US is not an imperialist power? Are you kidding me? We have military bases and troops all over the world. Our black ops interferes in the internal affairs of any country it wants with virtually no oversight. We use our economic might to twist arms and bend other countries to our will. We have a ridiculous treaty with Cuba that cedes use of Guantanamo Bay to us in perpetuity for $2000 a year. We pretty much invaded Iraq for the oil. No one believes they fucked up so badly that they thought there were WMDs and then whoops couldn’t find any! And then there's Puerto Rico. We won't let them become a state despite multiple referendums with the outcome in favor of statehood. Instead we keep them pretty much in colony status. Sounds great for us. Sucks for them when they have no right to provide input into their own national government. The administration is threatening to invade Venezuela because they don’t like the government. And to go straight to your specific definition of imperialism, the only thing you have is that we are done conquering. And now that we’re done we get to tell others that they can’t do it right? I mean really there are good arguments that can be made here but “The same cannot be said of the US” is not one of them. We just make it look cleaner.
rfwhyte 8y ago
As a Canadian I would tend to agree. My take on things is that while both countries spy, the reasons they do it are what matters. Broadly speaking the US spies to prevent terrorism and violence, where as China spies to steal IP, control their international diaspora for political purposes at home and abroad, and to destabilize democracies. The CCP worldview is incredibly cynical.
- chrischen 8y ago
  US did, and still tries to destabilize countries. See Iraq, covert CIA operations. It’s well within the norm. I think what you mean is that The US is Canada’s ally so being spied on by the US is less of a risk.
- OrgNet 8y ago
  The US says that it spies to prevent terrorism, violence, etc... but that is just a pretext to justify it. The main reason is to stay the richest.
nativeimigrant 8y ago
As a European? What does that mean? It's not like it's a homogeneous continent? Also as a European ... actually as a human ... I'd very much prefer to prohibit anyone spying on me. Europeans have seen first hand what totalitarianism means, even if it masquerades itself as freedom ;)

lern_too_spel 8y ago

The only companies that participate in PRISM are government security contractors. You appear not to have understood what PRISM is, which is astonishing given how much documentation we have about it.

oscargrouch 8y ago

Reading the answers to your comment, can get pretty depressive. As people are just taking spionage for granted, trying to choose who we would want to let spy on us. Please, can we try, or at least pretend we are trying to defend our rights to privacy of data that should be private? I dont want to have to choose who should spy on me. We are entering into this dystopian reality, and somehow we are fine with it.. but there will be a time, we will understand it's too late, and theres no going back. I hope we wake up sooner than that. Dont just accept it as it is, it will have severe consequences to our future, if we let them to have all of our data, because this means complete control of our lives and the end of the little free will we still have. It feels to me like choosing which mob lord would be the less evil to me.. We need to understand we dont actually need to make this kind of choice. Resist. Dont let them have it.