4 ms·

Ableton is actually worse at beatmatching than the human ear. A trained human can easily recognize a shift of 11ms, which is a fraction of a BPM [0]. Beat mat

Ableton is actually worse at beatmatching than the human ear. A trained human can easily recognize a shift of 11ms, which is a fraction of a BPM [0]. Beat matching algorithms are not as good or reliable, leading to "thick" beats where the two tracks aren't quite aligned, causing weird audio artifacts. Of course, if you never learn to beatmatch by ear (and never learn to drum), you probably won't develop the skill, leading you to think the mix is right on while educated listeners are cringing. Effects and filters only sound good if the underlying mix is great. Effects and filters are widely overused... Just like in Photoshop. Better just to start with fundamentally good art, it will need less additions. [0]: At 130bpm, a tenth of a beat is 46ms, so if both tracks are auto-beatmatched to one-tenth of a beat precision (130.0) as is the typical accuracy claim of every major dj tool, it's still 4x less accurate than the human ear. (1000ms * 60s)/(130bpm * 10)

empath75 8y ago
> Ableton is actually worse at beatmatching than the human ear. I never relied on the automatic beat detection. I manually adjusted the beat markers on every single track I played ahead of time. For most EDM the BPM doesn't waver at all, and most producers tend to use round numbers, so it's generally not actually that hard. The only trick is being consistent about where in the kick you mark it. I tend to use the snare/claps to calibrate, because those are generally where you can tell if there's drift. It's also easy to shift a track by a few milliseconds live if you notice that it's a bit off. > it's still 4x less accurate than the human ear. It's still way way more consistent than even the best analog turntables. You have to adjust constantly when mixing with technic 1200s because of drift.
- doublerebel 8y ago
  Yes, every track has a different matching point, you're quite right and that's the attribute of bpm most difficult for computers: which peaks to count? Manually pre-setting tracks has to be very consistent too -- if you pick claps on one track and go for snare on another, claps might bias the upbeat and snare the downbeat and when Ableton matches the tracks the kick will sound off. That's the problem as you identify: any two tracks may have a sound that matches best for that particular mix point, so it might need to be adjusted live. But if you are adjusting tracks live by a few ms... It sounds like you have learned beatmatching and are using it! To your other point: analog turntables, especially 1200s in good shape, do not drift. A proper beatmatch can and should ride the whole track. Multiple manufacturers make turntables of this quality. The error you saw was either poorly maintained equipment or an inexperienced DJ.
  - empath75 8y ago
    To be clear -- I learned how to beatmatch and played gigs on vinyl for crowds of thousands of people. I know how to do it. Even in terrible conditions (like "no monitor or headphones" bad). Ableton is simply a lot better at it. > A proper beatmatch can and should ride the whole track You are simply wrong if you think two technics 1200s of the quality that are in most clubs maintain sub-11ms accuracy over the course of a 5 minute mix. They drift and wobble.

empath75 8y ago

> Ableton is actually worse at beatmatching than the human ear. I never relied on the automatic beat detection. I manually adjusted the beat markers on every single track I played ahead of time. For most EDM the BPM doesn't waver at all, and most producers tend to use round numbers, so it's generally not actually that hard. The only trick is being consistent about where in the kick you mark it. I tend to use the snare/claps to calibrate, because those are generally where you can tell if there's drift. It's also easy to shift a track by a few milliseconds live if you notice that it's a bit off. > it's still 4x less accurate than the human ear. It's still way way more consistent than even the best analog turntables. You have to adjust constantly when mixing with technic 1200s because of drift.

doublerebel 8y ago
Yes, every track has a different matching point, you're quite right and that's the attribute of bpm most difficult for computers: which peaks to count? Manually pre-setting tracks has to be very consistent too -- if you pick claps on one track and go for snare on another, claps might bias the upbeat and snare the downbeat and when Ableton matches the tracks the kick will sound off. That's the problem as you identify: any two tracks may have a sound that matches best for that particular mix point, so it might need to be adjusted live. But if you are adjusting tracks live by a few ms... It sounds like you have learned beatmatching and are using it! To your other point: analog turntables, especially 1200s in good shape, do not drift. A proper beatmatch can and should ride the whole track. Multiple manufacturers make turntables of this quality. The error you saw was either poorly maintained equipment or an inexperienced DJ.
- empath75 8y ago
  To be clear -- I learned how to beatmatch and played gigs on vinyl for crowds of thousands of people. I know how to do it. Even in terrible conditions (like "no monitor or headphones" bad). Ableton is simply a lot better at it. > A proper beatmatch can and should ride the whole track You are simply wrong if you think two technics 1200s of the quality that are in most clubs maintain sub-11ms accuracy over the course of a 5 minute mix. They drift and wobble.