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> Why does this matter? If you want dick swinging, I'll probably beat you anyday. I'm a DMC finalist and toured with a few big rap groups and on my own for more

> Why does this matter? If you want dick swinging, I'll probably beat you anyday. I'm a DMC finalist and toured with a few big rap groups and on my own for more than half of my life. All this is irrelevant. We're talking about skills vs faking the funk here. It's relevant because it's a conversation about techno and I'm explaining I have direct insight into DJing techno. DMC is an entirely difference scene where "turntablism" is more of a thing so I can see why you might argue the case for learning to beat mix but those arguments don't apply to techno. > It is a part of djing and it is a creative part of the process. Maybe you didn't get creative with it and that's perfectly fine. You cannot get creative with beat matching. The process of beat matching is literally just quantising two tracks together. Everything else beyond that is "mixing" - which is where the creative process happens. But that is not "beat matching". The distinction I'm making is vital because you can do creative beat mixing without having to do any beat matching. > Maybe you didn't get creative with it and that's perfectly fine. I do and please don't make personal assumptions about me. > So if you're going for face value then yes, I can go up on stage with my laptop, play an mp3, dance to the music in front of thousands, and entertain people all day. This is entertainment but this isn't djing. I'm talking about raw skill. Sounds like you prefer someone to lip sync than actual sing on stage. Same thing. All DJing is just playing other peoples records. You're not up there with a guitar ffs. So it doesn't matter if it's an vinyl or an MP3 - that's just a technical detail. What actually matters is how you mix those records, not beat match them. > They will if you're good at your craft. You do realise you just argued that "The audience will physically touch your vinyl if you're a good DJ" - a statement which suggests you throw sharp plastic objects into the crowd. Clearly you wouldn't do this - which means you should probably go back and re-read what I'd written ;)

igotsideas 8y ago
> DMC is an entirely difference scene where "turntablism" is more of a thing so I can see why you might argue the case for learning to beat mix but those arguments don't apply to techno. I started mixing and continue to do it to this day. It's important for anyone who is djing. > You cannot get creative with beat matching. The process of beat matching is literally just quantising two tracks together. Everything else beyond that is "mixing" - which is where the creative process happens. But that is not "beat matching". Sure, I'll give you that > All DJing is just playing other peoples records. You're not up there with a guitar ffs. So it doesn't matter if it's an vinyl or an MP3 - that's just a technical detail. What actually matters is how you mix those records, not beat match them. Technical detail is what this discussion is about. I never use the term "beat matching" because it's kind of been all in one for me. However, "beat matching" does matter. You're telling me that train wrecking is okay as long as it's mixed good. > You do realise you just argued that "The audience will physically touch your vinyl if you're a good DJ" - a statement which suggests you throw sharp plastic objects into the crowd. Clearly you wouldn't do this - which means you should probably go back and re-read what I'd written ;) I was referring to what you said: "I've never gotten the same emotional connection with CDJs nor Ableton." I feel like you're jabbing at me now. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. If you want to play that game, well, we could do that all day. Not helping anyone out though.
- laumars 8y ago
  > I started mixing and continue to do it to this day. It's important for anyone who is djing. Mixing clear is. The discussion was whether beat matching live matters. (you still need to quantise your tracks if you use Ableton but you do it before the gig rather than during it). > Technical detail is what this discussion is about. I never use the term "beat matching" because it's kind of been all in one for me. However, "beat matching" does matter. You're telling me that train wrecking is okay as long as it's mixed good. Nobody was arguing that train wrecking your way through each mix is a good thing. Nor was I arguing that we shouldn't discuss the technical detail. > I was referring to what you said:( > > "I've never gotten the same emotional connection with CDJs nor Ableton."* Yes, but you ignored the first part where I discussed that I was talking about the tactile sensation rather than the musicality. That context is essential to the sentence you quoted. > I feel like you're jabbing at me now. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. If you want to play that game, well, we could do that all day. Not helping anyone out though. Sorry if you feel that way - I assure you that wasn't my intention. However you're not really in a position to play the sympathy card given the tone of your posts leading up to this point.
doublerebel 8y ago
> You cannot get creative with beat matching This is patently false, and particularly turntablists know it. There are several ways to match beats that are hard for computers (e.g. 3 over 4), or manually swinging the beat (computers don't have the funk), particularly to match a live band or instrument. I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity. It's like why piano players still play chords manually instead of just triggering them -- the analog human input actually makes it sound better than worse and the human aspect is usually what the audience came for.
- empath75 8y ago
  > I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity. Every choice you make is limiting. There are things you can do with ableton you simply cannot do with turntable mixing alone.
- laumars 8y ago
  > This is patently false, and particularly turntablists know it. There are several ways to match beats that are hard for computers (e.g. 3 over 4), or manually swinging the beat (computers don't have the funk), particularly to match a live band or instrument. Actually the main reason I switched to Ableton was because it was much easier to match music that isn't quantised because I started to throw in a lot of rock, metal and industrial sounds into my techno sets. What I wanted was long mixes with such tracks and while I could "drop" non-dance tracks in with vinyl, the effect wasn't as polished nor as sympathetic to the techno sound I was trying to achieve. This is in spite of me already being an accomplished multi-deck DJ who was competent with mixing different time signatures and other quirky tracks that many others might avoid. I do still love my decks though. It's not an "either / or" for me. I'd alternate between the different formats depending on the gig and the sound I wanted to create. > I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity Limiting in some ways, liberating in others. Vinyl has it's own limiting factors too. They're just different tools with different advantages and disadvantages. Saying one is better than the other is purely a subjective opinion based on the DJing style of the person arguing it.
musclecrab 8y ago
>All DJing is just playing other peoples records. You're not up there with a guitar ffs aren't you the guy that was talking about ableton a couple parts back?
- laumars 8y ago
  Yes. Your point being? I've DJed on vinyl, CDs and Ableton. My most creative sets have come from Ableton as I've been able to mash up music from genres I simply couldn't have if I were beat mixing them on vinyl (which was actually the reason I learned Ableton in the first place). However I'm still ostensibly just playing other peoples music. There is a lot of ego amongst some DJs where they liken themselves to musicians but it is a great deal harder to write music and perform that - live - than it is to DJ (this I know from experience as well). Which is why I objected when the OP made the comparison of himself to a band performing.
  - empath75 8y ago
    > I simply couldn't have if I were beat mixing them on vinyl As an example I have mixed from house at 125bpm straight into drum and bass at 175, gradually adjusting the tempo during the transition with ableton live while keeping both records perfectly in sync and without pitch shifting either. You simply can't do that with turntables..

igotsideas 8y ago

> DMC is an entirely difference scene where "turntablism" is more of a thing so I can see why you might argue the case for learning to beat mix but those arguments don't apply to techno. I started mixing and continue to do it to this day. It's important for anyone who is djing. > You cannot get creative with beat matching. The process of beat matching is literally just quantising two tracks together. Everything else beyond that is "mixing" - which is where the creative process happens. But that is not "beat matching". Sure, I'll give you that > All DJing is just playing other peoples records. You're not up there with a guitar ffs. So it doesn't matter if it's an vinyl or an MP3 - that's just a technical detail. What actually matters is how you mix those records, not beat match them. Technical detail is what this discussion is about. I never use the term "beat matching" because it's kind of been all in one for me. However, "beat matching" does matter. You're telling me that train wrecking is okay as long as it's mixed good. > You do realise you just argued that "The audience will physically touch your vinyl if you're a good DJ" - a statement which suggests you throw sharp plastic objects into the crowd. Clearly you wouldn't do this - which means you should probably go back and re-read what I'd written ;) I was referring to what you said: "I've never gotten the same emotional connection with CDJs nor Ableton." I feel like you're jabbing at me now. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. If you want to play that game, well, we could do that all day. Not helping anyone out though.

laumars 8y ago
> I started mixing and continue to do it to this day. It's important for anyone who is djing. Mixing clear is. The discussion was whether beat matching live matters. (you still need to quantise your tracks if you use Ableton but you do it before the gig rather than during it). > Technical detail is what this discussion is about. I never use the term "beat matching" because it's kind of been all in one for me. However, "beat matching" does matter. You're telling me that train wrecking is okay as long as it's mixed good. Nobody was arguing that train wrecking your way through each mix is a good thing. Nor was I arguing that we shouldn't discuss the technical detail. > I was referring to what you said:( > > "I've never gotten the same emotional connection with CDJs nor Ableton."* Yes, but you ignored the first part where I discussed that I was talking about the tactile sensation rather than the musicality. That context is essential to the sentence you quoted. > I feel like you're jabbing at me now. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. If you want to play that game, well, we could do that all day. Not helping anyone out though. Sorry if you feel that way - I assure you that wasn't my intention. However you're not really in a position to play the sympathy card given the tone of your posts leading up to this point.

doublerebel 8y ago

> You cannot get creative with beat matching This is patently false, and particularly turntablists know it. There are several ways to match beats that are hard for computers (e.g. 3 over 4), or manually swinging the beat (computers don't have the funk), particularly to match a live band or instrument. I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity. It's like why piano players still play chords manually instead of just triggering them -- the analog human input actually makes it sound better than worse and the human aspect is usually what the audience came for.

empath75 8y ago
> I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity. Every choice you make is limiting. There are things you can do with ableton you simply cannot do with turntable mixing alone.
laumars 8y ago
> This is patently false, and particularly turntablists know it. There are several ways to match beats that are hard for computers (e.g. 3 over 4), or manually swinging the beat (computers don't have the funk), particularly to match a live band or instrument. Actually the main reason I switched to Ableton was because it was much easier to match music that isn't quantised because I started to throw in a lot of rock, metal and industrial sounds into my techno sets. What I wanted was long mixes with such tracks and while I could "drop" non-dance tracks in with vinyl, the effect wasn't as polished nor as sympathetic to the techno sound I was trying to achieve. This is in spite of me already being an accomplished multi-deck DJ who was competent with mixing different time signatures and other quirky tracks that many others might avoid. I do still love my decks though. It's not an "either / or" for me. I'd alternate between the different formats depending on the gig and the sound I wanted to create. > I understand why people like Ableton, but don't pretend it's not limiting to expressivity Limiting in some ways, liberating in others. Vinyl has it's own limiting factors too. They're just different tools with different advantages and disadvantages. Saying one is better than the other is purely a subjective opinion based on the DJing style of the person arguing it.

musclecrab 8y ago

>All DJing is just playing other peoples records. You're not up there with a guitar ffs aren't you the guy that was talking about ableton a couple parts back?

laumars 8y ago
Yes. Your point being? I've DJed on vinyl, CDs and Ableton. My most creative sets have come from Ableton as I've been able to mash up music from genres I simply couldn't have if I were beat mixing them on vinyl (which was actually the reason I learned Ableton in the first place). However I'm still ostensibly just playing other peoples music. There is a lot of ego amongst some DJs where they liken themselves to musicians but it is a great deal harder to write music and perform that - live - than it is to DJ (this I know from experience as well). Which is why I objected when the OP made the comparison of himself to a band performing.
- empath75 8y ago
  > I simply couldn't have if I were beat mixing them on vinyl As an example I have mixed from house at 125bpm straight into drum and bass at 175, gradually adjusting the tempo during the transition with ableton live while keeping both records perfectly in sync and without pitch shifting either. You simply can't do that with turntables..