6 ms·

All your points are dead on. I'll throw in these cons as well: 5. visibility (as noted by angrygoat) and browseability is terrible. 6. Flipping through an ebo

All your points are dead on. I'll throw in these cons as well: 5. visibility (as noted by angrygoat) and browseability is terrible. 6. Flipping through an ebook looking for something is impossible. 7. Illustrations or drawings are rendered terribly. The list of pros of ebooks: 1. It's just a better experience. Ebooks are lighter than their equivalent books, easy to use one-handed, fonts can be adjusted, you can carry as many as you want with no extra weight, you can search within a book, you have access with wifi to your entire library at any point in time without having to fill up a cramped apartment. Browsing for books to read is terrible, but I can browse at my local B&N and then buy the ebooks on Amazon (which makes me terrible, but what can you do). In balance, this means that I've switched almost entirely to ebooks. The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting the Jolly Roger. This a step I am reluctant to take but if point 1 keeps going in this direction, then I can't really convince myself that I can justify the cost. A literally out-of-print book [1] selling for $13 is so outlandish that it makes my head spin. A book where the e-book is twice as expensive as the paperback [2]? What on earth is going on here. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009FKTTMQ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009FKTTMQ [2] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XT605Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XT605Y

bunderbunder 8y ago
> The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting the Jolly Roger. I think that that's solving the wrong problem. Just pirating ebooks that are offered under crappy Amazon and B&N style licensing agreements may get you a book that's more palatable to you, but it doesn't do anything to improve the ebook market itself. There are many, many publishers selling DRM-free ebooks out there, and manufacturers of e-readers that don't try to lock you in. If people who don't like DRM aren't willing to help them make money at what they're trying to do, they're going to go away, and DRM is going to become an even more pervasive problem because of it. It's true that their offerings can be more expensive. They're smaller outfits and can't afford to be vicious with economies of scale the way Amazon can. This is one of those spots where "freedom ain't free" is a statement you can take quite literally.
- andrewla 8y ago
  > but it doesn't do anything to improve the ebook market itself shrug I don't want to have to change the world first and then read the books I want to read. For the moment I'm willing to pay, but I'm inches away from opting out. I've even seriously considered building or purchasing a bulk book scanner and just ripping old mass market paperbacks for personal use. Or starting some sort of collective that does this. The signal that I want to send to Amazon (and, as I understand it, to the publishing houses that desperately want to kill ebooks in general and are trying to do so by forcing Amazon to honor their price floors) is that the prices are just too high. They could dramatically increase revenue simply by lowering the prices. A premium for "early access" is fine -- if I want to buy a book the day that it is released, I'm willing to pay a "hardcover" premium. But I want the option to wait for the "trade paperback" price or the "mass market paperback" price, or the "gently used" price. The DRM stuff I don't like but I'm not as passionate about, especially since I'm confident that Amazon will stick around a while. 84% of the reason that I accrued a personal physical book library (instead of borrowing from a library or donating or selling books after I've read them) over the years is with the memory of browsing my own parent's book collections and discovering amazing things and wanting to pass that experience on to my children. Amazon has their "family library" concept, so even though the browsing experience is currently terrible, I hope some day it will be better and all the ebooks I have acquired will afford my children the same experience as I had.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    > The signal that I want to send to Amazon... is that the prices are just too high. They could dramatically increase revenue simply by lowering the prices. They might be too high for you, on the specific books you want to read. But cutting book prices to maximize book revenues is Amazon's first and oldest game, and I have a hard time believing that they suddenly became clueless about how to play it when they entered (created, really) the ebook market. Offhand, I can think of two explanations for the price of Amazon ebooks that seem much more likely. I'm not sure if either are true, but I wouldn't be surprised both are: First, it could be that they have agreements with publishers, who have an interest in keeping the price of Amazon (and Nook) ebooks relatively high in order help keep non-Amazon booksellers in business. They've seen what Wal-Mart does to suppliers, and naturally would want to guard against ending up in that situation. Second, it could be that Amazon has figured out that they really do maximize Kindle revenues when they don't discount their ebooks very cheaply. That would be the case if Kindle readers generally buy what they want when they want to read it, regardless of a few bucks' difference in the book price. (It's not beyond the pale to think that might be true of people who, almost by definition, are willing to spend $1-200 on an e-reader.) Or, alternatively, they've found that they can price discriminate more effectively through their subscription service.
john-radio 8y ago
> visibility (as noted by angrygoat) and browseability is terrible Great point. I picked up The Linux Programming Interface from a Humble Bundle, knowing nothing about it, and my first impression was "This is a terrible book: very dry and not engaging." My manager mentioned it was excellent, though, so I actually picked up a hard copy, and then I saw what was going on: it's a Linux textbook, not the kind of programming book you'd really read from cover to cover. I know this story sort of shows my cluelessness a little, but it also shows how having the ten-pound tome on my desk gave me insights into how the book was meant to be interacted with, that the ebook didn't.
- scruple 8y ago
  Technical books are the exception for me. My entire library of physical books today is almost entirely technical books. Fiction and nonfiction are all ebooks. I read about a (fiction/nonfiction) book a week and am almost always also working on a technical book in the background (I run a technical book club in my company's engineering department).
wlll 8y ago
> It's just a better experience. That's rather subjective which is why I left most of this stuff out. Some people really like reading on a kindle or iPad, I don't particularly (the Kindle is "OK"). > Ebooks are lighter than their equivalent books It depends on the book TBH. A lot will be heavier, many won't. The book I'm currently reading ("Medium Raw" by Anthony Bourdain) is 49g heavier than a kindle (the cheapest in the UK), which for me is effectively the same as 0g in terms of wether I will notice. I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't make a difference to me. Of course, if I were to carry my entire library around that would be a significantly different story :) But then I just pick books I want to read and take them, and if I change my mind later I do something else. > easy to use one-handed Never had a problem with this. > fonts can be adjusted Never wanted to do this. > you can search within a book I rarely want to do this, so it's not a particularly big deal when I can't. > you have access with wifi to your entire library at any point in time without having to fill up a cramped apartment I mentioned in another comment, I am lucky in that I don't have that issue where I live. The balance might be altered if I lived in a small Tokyo apartment (for instance) however. > The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting the Jolly Roger. I can buy ebooks and strip the DRM if I want, I tried it (on ebooks I legitimately bought) so I could make sure I always had the book. It was a PITA and didn't (for me) swing the pendulum enough to choose ebooks.
- andrewla 8y ago
  For better experience I don't know if I can convince you -- the Kindle Oasis is just ridiculously ergonomic. I'm a voracious reader. Reading a paperback without breaking the spine is an annoyance that I'm glad to have put behind me. Reading a full-size hardcover is just not doable one-handed or lying on your side in bed. The front light is easy on the eyes at night and doesn't disturb other sleepers in your bed. I've tried to go back especially to re-read treasured classics, like Hitchiker's Guide, and just went ahead and bought the e-book version. > I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't make a difference to me. I've put a lot of work and streamlining into not carrying a bag at all. Carrying my kindle in my back pocket or jacket pocket is easy enough. Similarly carrying a book depends on the book. > > easy to use one-handed > Never had a problem with this. How do you turn pages? I used to have to do the awkward reverse flip - half close - move finger - let hang - flip up, or just free up my other hand for a second. On a crowded train neither of these work particularly well.
ihuman 8y ago
> Flipping through an ebook looking for something is impossible If you're looking for something in an ebook, wouldn't it be easier and more effective to just search for it?
- andrewla 8y ago
  Much of the time, which is why I highlighted search. But especially for technical books, being able to put your finger in one place and flip back to where you are and glance back at where you are holding your finger is a physical metaphor that does not translate. Similarly for maps or lists. "Wait, didn't that character die in the last chapter" is easily solved by flipping back a couple of chapters. If you search for the right thing you can find it too, but it's relatively painful for quick checks.
jammygit 8y ago
I read a lot of textbooks in DRM free eBook format lately, strictly for the weight. However, some of my books have licenses on them stating its a crime to even create a copy and worded so poorly that even personal backups are illegal, and I certainly am not allowed to share them with family members, resell, or let somebody inherit it. Same for almost all of my DRM free audiobooks. I don't find this acceptable when it comes up.
ghostDancer 8y ago
I only consider the option for ebooks in linear reading ones, like novels. For non linear ones I don't, so cookbooks (cooking or any other subject) or manuals I can't use them , I need paper. And you're right don't even began talking if there's a diagram/image/map.
- andrewla 8y ago
  Definitely, and I should have included that caveat. Kindle/epaper is ideal for linear books in my mind, but for non-linear, paper still rules, though I'm hopeful that some day someone will figure out a better way to use phones/tables for accessing that sort of content. Cookbooks are strange. With the number of recipes out there in electronic form it seems like the tide has shifted, but I still buy cookbooks for general cooking stuff, and still find myself printing out recipes that I find online (like an old person!) so that I can actually use them in a kitchen environment. Technical books, reference books, textbooks seem so incredibly natural for an interactive format, but I'm not aware of anyone that has cracked this. The closest metaphor I've found is having tabs in a browser, so I can store a limited history of my exploration of a topic, but it rapidly becomes an unnavigable mess.
  - ghostDancer 8y ago
    I do the same with recipes, the ones I find interesting on the net I import them to a recipe manager (Gourmet) but when I'm going to use them I print them and keep the paper copy in a folder .
scottlocklin 8y ago
I buy ebooks for two reasons: 1) To give some money to the authors (I'd rather bitcoin them) 2) Because it is a reasonable format for books I'll read once from start to finish. Searchability is baloney in most cases (index is better), and it's definitely not a better experience, even on paperwhite type technology -the only way any sane person should read an ebook other than quick lookups. I de-drm everything, because it's mine, so that's not a consideration. Textbooks, ebooks are basically useless unless you're remote and have no other options (and in this case; koreader on rooted hardware). It's for novels, philosophy, history books which are for fun; that sort of thing.
vsl 8y ago
> A literally out-of-print book [1] selling for $13 is so outlandish that it makes my head spin. You got that completely backwards. The book is freaking out of print. You can’t buy a physical copy anymore without a lot of effort. $13 seems a fair deal for conveniently getting a book you’d otherwise have a hard time obtaining. For that matter, out of print books being rare and thus more valuable and selling for (sometimes much) higher prices are not unheard of in the physical world either.

bunderbunder 8y ago

> The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting the Jolly Roger. I think that that's solving the wrong problem. Just pirating ebooks that are offered under crappy Amazon and B&N style licensing agreements may get you a book that's more palatable to you, but it doesn't do anything to improve the ebook market itself. There are many, many publishers selling DRM-free ebooks out there, and manufacturers of e-readers that don't try to lock you in. If people who don't like DRM aren't willing to help them make money at what they're trying to do, they're going to go away, and DRM is going to become an even more pervasive problem because of it. It's true that their offerings can be more expensive. They're smaller outfits and can't afford to be vicious with economies of scale the way Amazon can. This is one of those spots where "freedom ain't free" is a statement you can take quite literally.

andrewla 8y ago
> but it doesn't do anything to improve the ebook market itself shrug I don't want to have to change the world first and then read the books I want to read. For the moment I'm willing to pay, but I'm inches away from opting out. I've even seriously considered building or purchasing a bulk book scanner and just ripping old mass market paperbacks for personal use. Or starting some sort of collective that does this. The signal that I want to send to Amazon (and, as I understand it, to the publishing houses that desperately want to kill ebooks in general and are trying to do so by forcing Amazon to honor their price floors) is that the prices are just too high. They could dramatically increase revenue simply by lowering the prices. A premium for "early access" is fine -- if I want to buy a book the day that it is released, I'm willing to pay a "hardcover" premium. But I want the option to wait for the "trade paperback" price or the "mass market paperback" price, or the "gently used" price. The DRM stuff I don't like but I'm not as passionate about, especially since I'm confident that Amazon will stick around a while. 84% of the reason that I accrued a personal physical book library (instead of borrowing from a library or donating or selling books after I've read them) over the years is with the memory of browsing my own parent's book collections and discovering amazing things and wanting to pass that experience on to my children. Amazon has their "family library" concept, so even though the browsing experience is currently terrible, I hope some day it will be better and all the ebooks I have acquired will afford my children the same experience as I had.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  > The signal that I want to send to Amazon... is that the prices are just too high. They could dramatically increase revenue simply by lowering the prices. They might be too high for you, on the specific books you want to read. But cutting book prices to maximize book revenues is Amazon's first and oldest game, and I have a hard time believing that they suddenly became clueless about how to play it when they entered (created, really) the ebook market. Offhand, I can think of two explanations for the price of Amazon ebooks that seem much more likely. I'm not sure if either are true, but I wouldn't be surprised both are: First, it could be that they have agreements with publishers, who have an interest in keeping the price of Amazon (and Nook) ebooks relatively high in order help keep non-Amazon booksellers in business. They've seen what Wal-Mart does to suppliers, and naturally would want to guard against ending up in that situation. Second, it could be that Amazon has figured out that they really do maximize Kindle revenues when they don't discount their ebooks very cheaply. That would be the case if Kindle readers generally buy what they want when they want to read it, regardless of a few bucks' difference in the book price. (It's not beyond the pale to think that might be true of people who, almost by definition, are willing to spend $1-200 on an e-reader.) Or, alternatively, they've found that they can price discriminate more effectively through their subscription service.

john-radio 8y ago

> visibility (as noted by angrygoat) and browseability is terrible Great point. I picked up The Linux Programming Interface from a Humble Bundle, knowing nothing about it, and my first impression was "This is a terrible book: very dry and not engaging." My manager mentioned it was excellent, though, so I actually picked up a hard copy, and then I saw what was going on: it's a Linux textbook, not the kind of programming book you'd really read from cover to cover. I know this story sort of shows my cluelessness a little, but it also shows how having the ten-pound tome on my desk gave me insights into how the book was meant to be interacted with, that the ebook didn't.

scruple 8y ago
Technical books are the exception for me. My entire library of physical books today is almost entirely technical books. Fiction and nonfiction are all ebooks. I read about a (fiction/nonfiction) book a week and am almost always also working on a technical book in the background (I run a technical book club in my company's engineering department).

wlll 8y ago

> It's just a better experience. That's rather subjective which is why I left most of this stuff out. Some people really like reading on a kindle or iPad, I don't particularly (the Kindle is "OK"). > Ebooks are lighter than their equivalent books It depends on the book TBH. A lot will be heavier, many won't. The book I'm currently reading ("Medium Raw" by Anthony Bourdain) is 49g heavier than a kindle (the cheapest in the UK), which for me is effectively the same as 0g in terms of wether I will notice. I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't make a difference to me. Of course, if I were to carry my entire library around that would be a significantly different story :) But then I just pick books I want to read and take them, and if I change my mind later I do something else. > easy to use one-handed Never had a problem with this. > fonts can be adjusted Never wanted to do this. > you can search within a book I rarely want to do this, so it's not a particularly big deal when I can't. > you have access with wifi to your entire library at any point in time without having to fill up a cramped apartment I mentioned in another comment, I am lucky in that I don't have that issue where I live. The balance might be altered if I lived in a small Tokyo apartment (for instance) however. > The objections that you give (1-4) are the ones that are fixable by hoisting the Jolly Roger. I can buy ebooks and strip the DRM if I want, I tried it (on ebooks I legitimately bought) so I could make sure I always had the book. It was a PITA and didn't (for me) swing the pendulum enough to choose ebooks.

andrewla 8y ago
For better experience I don't know if I can convince you -- the Kindle Oasis is just ridiculously ergonomic. I'm a voracious reader. Reading a paperback without breaking the spine is an annoyance that I'm glad to have put behind me. Reading a full-size hardcover is just not doable one-handed or lying on your side in bed. The front light is easy on the eyes at night and doesn't disturb other sleepers in your bed. I've tried to go back especially to re-read treasured classics, like Hitchiker's Guide, and just went ahead and bought the e-book version. > I am a relatively strong man, throwing a book or two into my bag doesn't make a difference to me. I've put a lot of work and streamlining into not carrying a bag at all. Carrying my kindle in my back pocket or jacket pocket is easy enough. Similarly carrying a book depends on the book. > > easy to use one-handed > Never had a problem with this. How do you turn pages? I used to have to do the awkward reverse flip - half close - move finger - let hang - flip up, or just free up my other hand for a second. On a crowded train neither of these work particularly well.

ihuman 8y ago

> Flipping through an ebook looking for something is impossible If you're looking for something in an ebook, wouldn't it be easier and more effective to just search for it?

andrewla 8y ago
Much of the time, which is why I highlighted search. But especially for technical books, being able to put your finger in one place and flip back to where you are and glance back at where you are holding your finger is a physical metaphor that does not translate. Similarly for maps or lists. "Wait, didn't that character die in the last chapter" is easily solved by flipping back a couple of chapters. If you search for the right thing you can find it too, but it's relatively painful for quick checks.

jammygit 8y ago

I read a lot of textbooks in DRM free eBook format lately, strictly for the weight. However, some of my books have licenses on them stating its a crime to even create a copy and worded so poorly that even personal backups are illegal, and I certainly am not allowed to share them with family members, resell, or let somebody inherit it. Same for almost all of my DRM free audiobooks. I don't find this acceptable when it comes up.

ghostDancer 8y ago

I only consider the option for ebooks in linear reading ones, like novels. For non linear ones I don't, so cookbooks (cooking or any other subject) or manuals I can't use them , I need paper. And you're right don't even began talking if there's a diagram/image/map.

andrewla 8y ago
Definitely, and I should have included that caveat. Kindle/epaper is ideal for linear books in my mind, but for non-linear, paper still rules, though I'm hopeful that some day someone will figure out a better way to use phones/tables for accessing that sort of content. Cookbooks are strange. With the number of recipes out there in electronic form it seems like the tide has shifted, but I still buy cookbooks for general cooking stuff, and still find myself printing out recipes that I find online (like an old person!) so that I can actually use them in a kitchen environment. Technical books, reference books, textbooks seem so incredibly natural for an interactive format, but I'm not aware of anyone that has cracked this. The closest metaphor I've found is having tabs in a browser, so I can store a limited history of my exploration of a topic, but it rapidly becomes an unnavigable mess.
- ghostDancer 8y ago
  I do the same with recipes, the ones I find interesting on the net I import them to a recipe manager (Gourmet) but when I'm going to use them I print them and keep the paper copy in a folder .

scottlocklin 8y ago

I buy ebooks for two reasons: 1) To give some money to the authors (I'd rather bitcoin them) 2) Because it is a reasonable format for books I'll read once from start to finish. Searchability is baloney in most cases (index is better), and it's definitely not a better experience, even on paperwhite type technology -the only way any sane person should read an ebook other than quick lookups. I de-drm everything, because it's mine, so that's not a consideration. Textbooks, ebooks are basically useless unless you're remote and have no other options (and in this case; koreader on rooted hardware). It's for novels, philosophy, history books which are for fun; that sort of thing.

vsl 8y ago

> A literally out-of-print book [1] selling for $13 is so outlandish that it makes my head spin. You got that completely backwards. The book is freaking out of print. You can’t buy a physical copy anymore without a lot of effort. $13 seems a fair deal for conveniently getting a book you’d otherwise have a hard time obtaining. For that matter, out of print books being rare and thus more valuable and selling for (sometimes much) higher prices are not unheard of in the physical world either.