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>the Lion Air crash (they were busy smearing the airline an the pilots instead) In a rush to put to blame on Boeing everyone seems to have forgotten that Lion

by treis 8y ago

>the Lion Air crash (they were busy smearing the airline an the pilots instead) In a rush to put to blame on Boeing everyone seems to have forgotten that Lion Air badly screwed up: (1) The aircraft exhibited the same failure on its previous flight. Not fixing it before the next flight is a huge maintenance screw up. (2) That failure and the steps to correct it should have been in the log book and the next pilots should have been keenly aware of the potential issue and how to fix it (3) The pilots counteracted MCAS some 20 times by using the electronic trim control but never switched over to manual control. A better designed plane might not have tested the mettle of Lion Air as sternly as this issue did. However, that doesn't change that the fact that when tested the pilots and Lion Air performed terribly. It wasn't just Boeing defending their plane. Pilots unions also came out and said that they saw no issue with the plane and that their members felt like they could handle any issue.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Namely that Boeing didn't even bother to document MCAS, let alone deem it necessary to provide training for purely commercial reasons. Turns out that their documented emergency procedure also isn't helpful once the plane becomes unstable due to their design fuck-up. Way to go!
- treis 8y ago
  >I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Thank you for your personal attack. Besides that, I'll just note that you didn't actually address any of my points.
  - Rooster61 8y ago
    He didn't attack you personally. He attacked your action, which was smearing the pilots (which is indeed disgusting).
JshWright 8y ago
As we have now learned, switching to the manual control is useless when the aircraft is in this condition (high speed, stab down, elevator up). The Ethiopian pilots turned off the electric trim control, only to have to turn it back on again.
- treis 8y ago
  >As we have now learned, switching to the manual control is useless when the aircraft is in this condition (high speed, stab down, elevator up). That wasn't the position the Lion Air flight was in. I don't think there is much debate that the Lion Air flight was recoverable since the pilots on the previous flight recovered from the same issue: >As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit. >That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. >The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...
  - JshWright 8y ago
    It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them.
    - treis 8y ago
      >It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Similarly, because it was unrecoverable in one situation [based solely on speculation at this point] doesn't mean it was unrecoverable in another. >Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them. I'll note here that you have at best addressed one of my three points. To add color: >Airline mechanics tried four times to fix related issues on the plane starting Oct. 26, according to the Indonesia preliminary report. Do you think that's ok? >However, the pilots on the harrowing Oct. 28 flight [the flight before the crash] from Bali to Jakarta didn’t mention key issues with the flight after they landed, according to the report. Do you think that's ok? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...

by treis 8y ago

CaptainZapp 8y ago

I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Namely that Boeing didn't even bother to document MCAS, let alone deem it necessary to provide training for purely commercial reasons. Turns out that their documented emergency procedure also isn't helpful once the plane becomes unstable due to their design fuck-up. Way to go!

treis 8y ago
>I think it's pretty disgusting that you're still smearing the Lion Air Pilots despite all the facts that came to light after the Ethiopian crash. Thank you for your personal attack. Besides that, I'll just note that you didn't actually address any of my points.
- Rooster61 8y ago
  He didn't attack you personally. He attacked your action, which was smearing the pilots (which is indeed disgusting).

JshWright 8y ago

As we have now learned, switching to the manual control is useless when the aircraft is in this condition (high speed, stab down, elevator up). The Ethiopian pilots turned off the electric trim control, only to have to turn it back on again.

treis 8y ago
>As we have now learned, switching to the manual control is useless when the aircraft is in this condition (high speed, stab down, elevator up). That wasn't the position the Lion Air flight was in. I don't think there is much debate that the Lion Air flight was recoverable since the pilots on the previous flight recovered from the same issue: >As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit. >That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. >The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...
- JshWright 8y ago
  It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them.
  - treis 8y ago
    >It was recoverable in a similar situation. That does not mean it was recoverable in both situations. Similarly, because it was unrecoverable in one situation [based solely on speculation at this point] doesn't mean it was unrecoverable in another. >Any incident like this is a chain of events (which in this case started back with the original design decisions). Many links in that chain aren't obvious, and no two chains are identical. Just because the chain was broken in one case doesn't mean it was reasonable to expect it to be broken in all of them. I'll note here that you have at best addressed one of my three points. To add color: >Airline mechanics tried four times to fix related issues on the plane starting Oct. 26, according to the Indonesia preliminary report. Do you think that's ok? >However, the pilots on the harrowing Oct. 28 flight [the flight before the crash] from Bali to Jakarta didn’t mention key issues with the flight after they landed, according to the report. Do you think that's ok? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-ex...