6 ms·

A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be allowed

A lot depends on your particulars. I'm a minority and the US is great because I can earn opportunities my relatives in some other countries would not be allowed. In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I know this just comparing experiences, stories, outcomes from many friends, cousins, co-workers in other countries. (Also, I've lived overseas for work many years and got to see things firsthand.) Is it a grind? Yes. Stressful? Yes. But meritocracies [wherever you are on the spectrum] are stressful because you are competing for outcomes rather than being born into them. ...And then there is US healthcare. I don't know what to say about that...

dudul 8y ago
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. Some may say that in the US, what gets in the way is which social class you belong to. Several studies highlight that social mobility is very low in the US.
sweeeety 8y ago
Came here to say this. I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA. The country I came without much to offer but honest work and positive/open mind. Whereas in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken. There is suffering everywhere I lived Canada, USA, France, Denmark, Japan, Brazil. Some places take care better of the unprivileged indeed. ...yeah the health care has become a big problem but it is for the Americans to solve it their own way.
- close04 8y ago
  > I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA > in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken I'm not contesting you actually had these experiences but yours must be an exceptional story. It contradicts the reality of a lot of people. But you make one big confusion that makes me question your experience with the systems. The US is a country with relatively uniform legislation. Europe is a continent where not only are the cultures vastly different between countries, the laws (like immigration) can be very different, a lot more so than between US states. And not all European countries are in the European Union. So the blanket statement "the immigration path is also completely broken", especially when comparing to the US, gives away some (uninformed) bias. A person coming from Syria can get permanent resident status and/or citizenship after just a few years under perfectly acceptable conditions (like learning the language and having a job). So I don't really see a broken or particularly difficult path especially compared to the US.
  - sweeeety 8y ago
    Definitely, it is my subjective experience but what I can say is that lot of high skilled immigrants here in Denmark don't feel welcome [0]. Whereas, in the USA, we were really proud to be there and contribute to the society and eventually become permanent resident / citizen. Legislation in the USA varies a lot, unless we talk about immigration. Which in my case here in EU, as spouse of EU citizen, is also being scrutinized by politicians here in Denmark [0]. [0]: https://www.thelocal.dk/20190327/opinion-stop-being-so-hostile-to-foreign-professionals-denmark-you-need-us https://www.thelocal.dk/20190327/opinion-stop-being-so-hosti... edit: forgot to mention. My worst employer in the USA was ironically a Danish company (MeyersUSA hospitality group). They blatantly violated labor laws and sanitation requirements (sadly they managed to erase some of the negative reviews from Glassdoor).
    - close04 8y ago
      Then I would rather say the issue is with Denmark (laws, politicians, people, whoever you see as the main culprit) rather than a European issue. Denmark is one of the smaller countries (size and population) in the EU so generalizing based on that example seems like an overreaction. Also I can't find any reference anywhere supporting the idea that physical abuse from the locals is a common practice in Denmark. There's no pattern to police shootings and incarcerations based on color either. For example Vienna, Prague or Madrid are generally considered as some of the most expat friendly cities in the world. Germany, Spain, Sweden are also generally considered as some of the best expat countries in the world. Imagine saying the US is not an innovative country because Mississippi is not innovative. :)
      - sweeeety 8y ago
        You are right that it might be a particular problem from Denmark but I also see it is common to share the positiveness of EU across all States (like saying assuming quality health care is universal across EU) but single out negativities when convenient. The use case pointed with Mississippi is one of those absurd edge cases. It would be more suitable to say you don't generalize the USA as a country full of pick trucks or people carrying concealed guns, even if that might be more common in some states and illegal/uncommon in others.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Improvotter 8y ago
> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. I completely disagree. I'm from Europe and applied to a few American-based companies and they all had these ridiculous forms related to anti-discrimination and the like. Is it that big of a problem in the US? That's whay I'm asking myself when I have to fill in those forms. Why do you have to know my ethnicity? Why do people in the US _constantly_, and I mean CONSTANTLY, talk about their origins? Literally no one cares in Europe, but it's always said in the US. "Native-american btw", "african-american btw", etc. I personally think this is an issue in the US, but it isn't that big of an issue in Europe. > This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I personally think that this is an illusion. Europe is in my opinion a lot more meritocratic than the US from my visits. I think the US is very hypocritical when it talks about immigrants as the whole of the US is made of immigrants, just all from different generations. Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything.
- freshm087 8y ago
  Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything. This is plainly not true. EU has a lot of its own walls. It's just the fact that it lacks long land border with countries from which major migration flows originate is what makes it a lesser topic for debates. Why do you think migrants coming from the Middle East prefer to cross Aegean sea, instead of going by land? Because land border is all fences, barbed wire, and even landmines with not a single gap. And limiting migration is very hot political issue in many EU countries currently.
  - smnrchrds 8y ago
    Landmines? Aren't EU countries signatories to the Ottawa Treaty?
    - freshm087 8y ago
      TB of my knowledge the border between Turkey, and Greece still has uncleared landmine fields, and Serbian-Croatian border has uncleared spots too, in spite of the treaty. For clarification, I'm not telling they appeared there because of migrants. No, but my point is one can't pretend EU don't want to build border walls because EU is all migrant-loving place. EU's land border with unstable regions is very short (a patch in Bulgaria, a patch in Greece, Spanish Ceuta & Melilla), and already well-fortified. That's why there's no duscussion.
sidesentists 8y ago
I think it depends on your frame of reference. Sure, for certain individuals the US, or Europe, or much of Asia would provide a better life. But compared to how things were in the past, the US has changed for the worse. I'm a white male, so I can't really complain about being mistreated in the sense you're mentioning. But in talking to many people, and in my own experiences, there's a sense that the "meritocracy" is increasingly a falsehood based on survivorship bias. My own sense is that this is largely driven by increasing income inequality, coupled with or driven itself by monopolies and rent-seeking behavior across many many domains. So a smaller and smaller pool of money is going around to those who are able and willing, and a disproportionate amount of it is going to a smaller few who either game the system, or who are willing to tolerate abuse. Part of what the article is referencing, I think, is a shame among Americans to say this, because it's labeled as sour grapes or something. I also think part of it is a sense that admitting the system might be broken is actually less optimistic because it amounts to some admission that you don't have agency. But these seem increasingly untenable as positions to have.

dudul 8y ago

> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. Some may say that in the US, what gets in the way is which social class you belong to. Several studies highlight that social mobility is very low in the US.

sweeeety 8y ago

Came here to say this. I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA. The country I came without much to offer but honest work and positive/open mind. Whereas in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken. There is suffering everywhere I lived Canada, USA, France, Denmark, Japan, Brazil. Some places take care better of the unprivileged indeed. ...yeah the health care has become a big problem but it is for the Americans to solve it their own way.

close04 8y ago
> I am a minority but never found myself misplaced in the USA > in Europe I've been victim of physical abuse just because I am not white and the immigration path is also completely broken I'm not contesting you actually had these experiences but yours must be an exceptional story. It contradicts the reality of a lot of people. But you make one big confusion that makes me question your experience with the systems. The US is a country with relatively uniform legislation. Europe is a continent where not only are the cultures vastly different between countries, the laws (like immigration) can be very different, a lot more so than between US states. And not all European countries are in the European Union. So the blanket statement "the immigration path is also completely broken", especially when comparing to the US, gives away some (uninformed) bias. A person coming from Syria can get permanent resident status and/or citizenship after just a few years under perfectly acceptable conditions (like learning the language and having a job). So I don't really see a broken or particularly difficult path especially compared to the US.
- sweeeety 8y ago
  Definitely, it is my subjective experience but what I can say is that lot of high skilled immigrants here in Denmark don't feel welcome [0]. Whereas, in the USA, we were really proud to be there and contribute to the society and eventually become permanent resident / citizen. Legislation in the USA varies a lot, unless we talk about immigration. Which in my case here in EU, as spouse of EU citizen, is also being scrutinized by politicians here in Denmark [0]. [0]: https://www.thelocal.dk/20190327/opinion-stop-being-so-hostile-to-foreign-professionals-denmark-you-need-us https://www.thelocal.dk/20190327/opinion-stop-being-so-hosti... edit: forgot to mention. My worst employer in the USA was ironically a Danish company (MeyersUSA hospitality group). They blatantly violated labor laws and sanitation requirements (sadly they managed to erase some of the negative reviews from Glassdoor).
  - close04 8y ago
    Then I would rather say the issue is with Denmark (laws, politicians, people, whoever you see as the main culprit) rather than a European issue. Denmark is one of the smaller countries (size and population) in the EU so generalizing based on that example seems like an overreaction. Also I can't find any reference anywhere supporting the idea that physical abuse from the locals is a common practice in Denmark. There's no pattern to police shootings and incarcerations based on color either. For example Vienna, Prague or Madrid are generally considered as some of the most expat friendly cities in the world. Germany, Spain, Sweden are also generally considered as some of the best expat countries in the world. Imagine saying the US is not an innovative country because Mississippi is not innovative. :)
    - sweeeety 8y ago
      You are right that it might be a particular problem from Denmark but I also see it is common to share the positiveness of EU across all States (like saying assuming quality health care is universal across EU) but single out negativities when convenient. The use case pointed with Mississippi is one of those absurd edge cases. It would be more suitable to say you don't generalize the USA as a country full of pick trucks or people carrying concealed guns, even if that might be more common in some states and illegal/uncommon in others.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Improvotter 8y ago

> In some other countries, your ethnicity/background/religion would get in the way far more than in the US. I completely disagree. I'm from Europe and applied to a few American-based companies and they all had these ridiculous forms related to anti-discrimination and the like. Is it that big of a problem in the US? That's whay I'm asking myself when I have to fill in those forms. Why do you have to know my ethnicity? Why do people in the US _constantly_, and I mean CONSTANTLY, talk about their origins? Literally no one cares in Europe, but it's always said in the US. "Native-american btw", "african-american btw", etc. I personally think this is an issue in the US, but it isn't that big of an issue in Europe. > This is not to say we don't have room for improvement, we do. Just that we're more meritocratic than certain other first world countries. I personally think that this is an illusion. Europe is in my opinion a lot more meritocratic than the US from my visits. I think the US is very hypocritical when it talks about immigrants as the whole of the US is made of immigrants, just all from different generations. Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything.

freshm087 8y ago
Europe doesn't currently have a problem with building a wall to keep the Mexicans out or anything. This is plainly not true. EU has a lot of its own walls. It's just the fact that it lacks long land border with countries from which major migration flows originate is what makes it a lesser topic for debates. Why do you think migrants coming from the Middle East prefer to cross Aegean sea, instead of going by land? Because land border is all fences, barbed wire, and even landmines with not a single gap. And limiting migration is very hot political issue in many EU countries currently.
- smnrchrds 8y ago
  Landmines? Aren't EU countries signatories to the Ottawa Treaty?
  - freshm087 8y ago
    TB of my knowledge the border between Turkey, and Greece still has uncleared landmine fields, and Serbian-Croatian border has uncleared spots too, in spite of the treaty. For clarification, I'm not telling they appeared there because of migrants. No, but my point is one can't pretend EU don't want to build border walls because EU is all migrant-loving place. EU's land border with unstable regions is very short (a patch in Bulgaria, a patch in Greece, Spanish Ceuta & Melilla), and already well-fortified. That's why there's no duscussion.

sidesentists 8y ago

I think it depends on your frame of reference. Sure, for certain individuals the US, or Europe, or much of Asia would provide a better life. But compared to how things were in the past, the US has changed for the worse. I'm a white male, so I can't really complain about being mistreated in the sense you're mentioning. But in talking to many people, and in my own experiences, there's a sense that the "meritocracy" is increasingly a falsehood based on survivorship bias. My own sense is that this is largely driven by increasing income inequality, coupled with or driven itself by monopolies and rent-seeking behavior across many many domains. So a smaller and smaller pool of money is going around to those who are able and willing, and a disproportionate amount of it is going to a smaller few who either game the system, or who are willing to tolerate abuse. Part of what the article is referencing, I think, is a shame among Americans to say this, because it's labeled as sour grapes or something. I also think part of it is a sense that admitting the system might be broken is actually less optimistic because it amounts to some admission that you don't have agency. But these seem increasingly untenable as positions to have.