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Pilot error is always assumed for pilots of all races. The French pilot who was allegedly responsible for crashing an Airbus during a flyover for an air show fo

Pilot error is always assumed for pilots of all races. The French pilot who was allegedly responsible for crashing an Airbus during a flyover for an air show fought decades for clearing his name. He also claimed that the system had "artificial stupidity", that was the time when pilots first had the fun of encountering the many Airbus "flight laws".

simion314 8y ago
But in this case the pilots and airlines were accused to be a lower tier then the american pilots. So on top of the regular accusations if this would have been an american airplane the third world country accusations were added on top as an extra.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  There was definitely an air of superiority of American pilots. The problem is that there is a grain of truth to it. A big part of this is that the American Airforce train a huge number of pilots to an incredibly high standard who eventually leave the military and become civilian pilots. Any pilot who isn't naturally gifted in the art of flying an aeroplane will be flunked before finishing their training. They are tested in ways that a 200 hour civilian CPL just never will be. Even the increasing numbers of pilots coming to flying through a civilian tract in the US have a number of benefits. Classically they flew cancelled cheques around the US in beaten up twin engine aircraft in all weathers while building the required number of hours. Even in modern times, due to a culture of GA flying, they've got a lot more opportunities to fly different aircraft types (taildragger, floatplanes, gliders), fly aerobatics etc.
  - simion314 8y ago
    So, do you know as a fact that plots in other countries are less passionate or have less training? It would be interesting if you have a source of how many civilian pilots are ex-military pilots, as an non-expert I would say that having experience with a fighter plane is not better then having same hours of experience with a civilian plane, it is not like fighter plane experience is much better then other planes when considering you will fly a big commercial plane in the end.
    - VBprogrammer 8y ago
      Apparently somewhere around 30% if this is to be believed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/04/20/the-odds-youll-be-flown-by-a-former-fighter-pilot-like-southwests-shults-have-plummeted/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/04/20/the-o... "A grain of truth" doesn't mean it's provably true. But it's hard to argue that flying a plane load of passengers on autopilot from the same 4 airports for hours on end remotely gives you the same skill level as flying low level, in high performance and often in formation with other aircraft would.
      - inferiorhuman 8y ago
        But it's hard to argue that flying a plane load of passengers on autopilot from the same 4 airports for hours on end remotely gives you the same skill level as flying low level, in high performance and often in formation with other aircraft would. Fine, I'll argue that. Southwest pilots do just that because Southwest is primarily a short haul airline. They do more takeoffs and landings on a daily basis than nearly any other airline and often from relatively small airports. If you're flying for them you're going to routinely practice the most dangerous parts of the flight. IIRC Southwest is less draconian about mandating autopilot usage than many other airlines. They have a reputation for being aggressive about timing (as my friend put it, you never want to be stuck in front of a Southwest pilot) and yet they have an enviable safety record.
        VBprogrammer 8y ago
        Sure, but southwest already has US pilots, many of them ex-military, who have all of the advantages I've mentioned.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      So, do you know as a fact that plots in other countries are less passionate or have less training? Option C: crew resource management and by extension culture. Take a look at one of (if not the) worst aviation wrecks in history: the Tenerife disaster. A Dutch 747 (KLM) and American 747 (PanAm) collided and became engulfed in a gigantic fireball. The biggest factor was that nobody was willing to speak up or acknowledge in either cockpit that there was uncertainty and an unsafe situation. Yes these are two western countries, but after the wreck western aviation culture changed dramatically as a significant emphasis was put on what amounts to "see something? say something!!" (a.k.a. crew resource management, CRM). CRM has been very slow to trickle down to, for instance, East Asian airlines where deference to authority has a much stronger hold. Take a look at the Asiana wreck at SFO. Two pilots in the cockpit were repeatedly calling out significant mistakes, but the pilot flying ignored them. Neither of the other pilots took control of the situation and the plane was flown straight into the ground. Training, as well, seems to be something American pilots are pretty prickly about. After a Continental regional airline (Colgan Air) wrecked the solution was deemed to be requiring more pilot training (despite the fact that experience was NOT the problem in this crash). For all the belly aching about the guy in the left set of the Ethiopian Air jet having only a few hundred hours — up until 2013 the FAA only required 250 hours of experience to get a certificate allowing commercial flight (ATP). The requirement now is 1,500 hours, but it sure doesn't seem like American air travel has become dramatically safer since 2013. I don't think passion is the right word, but the USA has a much stronger general aviation culture than many other counties. Someone living in America is going to have many more opportunities to fly a civilian plane than someone living in, for instance, South Korea. The military experience may even be detrimental as it's often going to focus on strict hierarchies (see CRM) when this may create safety problems. Edit: I want to add that Indonesian aviation is notoriously unsafe and most Indonesian airlines have been banned from EU airspace (with some allowed back more recently). Lion Air, in particular, has a bad record of wrecking planes and lots of allegations about falsifying maintenance records. Hell, there is that one Lion Air captain who posts cockpit videos on youtube (including at least one showing some startlingly sloppy behavior). But if you look at flight 610 specifically you'll start to see a lot of things that would put even the best pilots in a bad situation. Even looking at the data from flightaware should've provoked a bit of an "are these pilots REALLY that bad?" response. A certain amount of initial suspicion was warranted, especially since pilot error is an extremely common cause of crashes even in western countries. A more continued drive to vilify the JT610 pilots or excuse Boeing's behavior is, IMO, out of line.
- 7952 8y ago
  It is hard to imagine how any 737 pilot would be unaware of the problem and resulting Boeing advice given the massive amount of attention this has reviewed. Regardless of training issues I find it hard to believe that any pilot would be so indifferent as to ignore this.
  - simion314 8y ago
    So you blame the pilot that he is not training itself in the new hidden changes of the airplane? Isn't Boeing duty to create the checklists/procedures for the possible issue ? or we let this work for the pilots internet forums? Though from the article it appears that pilots followed all the official procedures,
    - 7952 8y ago
      Of course it is Boeing and airlines responsibility. But if for some reason that training was absent I would expect pilot to seek the information themselves. To suggest otherwise is an insult to their intelligence and professionalism. Of course pilots are going to take an interest in crashes on the aeroplane they fly! Particularly when it is the biggest aviation story in years. Porbably something that they discuss regularly with other pilots. That is why I think the poor training angle is implausible for this particular issue and just prejudice.
      - CaptainZapp 8y ago
        But if for some reason that training was absent I would expect pilot to seek the information themselves. Here[1]'s a rather sobering read for you what happened to a pilot who tried exactly that. Spoiler alert: It was not a smart carreer move at that time. [1] https://qz.com/1584233/boeing-737-max-what-happened-when-one-us-pilot-asked-for-more-training/ https://qz.com/1584233/boeing-737-max-what-happened-when-one...
segmondy 8y ago
I was just having this discussion with my team yesterday. Easier to blame the pilot when they are dead. I use to believe most NTSB reports and that most errors were pilot errors. Probably true, but probably not as high either.

simion314 8y ago

But in this case the pilots and airlines were accused to be a lower tier then the american pilots. So on top of the regular accusations if this would have been an american airplane the third world country accusations were added on top as an extra.

VBprogrammer 8y ago
There was definitely an air of superiority of American pilots. The problem is that there is a grain of truth to it. A big part of this is that the American Airforce train a huge number of pilots to an incredibly high standard who eventually leave the military and become civilian pilots. Any pilot who isn't naturally gifted in the art of flying an aeroplane will be flunked before finishing their training. They are tested in ways that a 200 hour civilian CPL just never will be. Even the increasing numbers of pilots coming to flying through a civilian tract in the US have a number of benefits. Classically they flew cancelled cheques around the US in beaten up twin engine aircraft in all weathers while building the required number of hours. Even in modern times, due to a culture of GA flying, they've got a lot more opportunities to fly different aircraft types (taildragger, floatplanes, gliders), fly aerobatics etc.
- simion314 8y ago
  So, do you know as a fact that plots in other countries are less passionate or have less training? It would be interesting if you have a source of how many civilian pilots are ex-military pilots, as an non-expert I would say that having experience with a fighter plane is not better then having same hours of experience with a civilian plane, it is not like fighter plane experience is much better then other planes when considering you will fly a big commercial plane in the end.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Apparently somewhere around 30% if this is to be believed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/04/20/the-odds-youll-be-flown-by-a-former-fighter-pilot-like-southwests-shults-have-plummeted/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/04/20/the-o... "A grain of truth" doesn't mean it's provably true. But it's hard to argue that flying a plane load of passengers on autopilot from the same 4 airports for hours on end remotely gives you the same skill level as flying low level, in high performance and often in formation with other aircraft would.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      But it's hard to argue that flying a plane load of passengers on autopilot from the same 4 airports for hours on end remotely gives you the same skill level as flying low level, in high performance and often in formation with other aircraft would. Fine, I'll argue that. Southwest pilots do just that because Southwest is primarily a short haul airline. They do more takeoffs and landings on a daily basis than nearly any other airline and often from relatively small airports. If you're flying for them you're going to routinely practice the most dangerous parts of the flight. IIRC Southwest is less draconian about mandating autopilot usage than many other airlines. They have a reputation for being aggressive about timing (as my friend put it, you never want to be stuck in front of a Southwest pilot) and yet they have an enviable safety record.
      - VBprogrammer 8y ago
        Sure, but southwest already has US pilots, many of them ex-military, who have all of the advantages I've mentioned.
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    So, do you know as a fact that plots in other countries are less passionate or have less training? Option C: crew resource management and by extension culture. Take a look at one of (if not the) worst aviation wrecks in history: the Tenerife disaster. A Dutch 747 (KLM) and American 747 (PanAm) collided and became engulfed in a gigantic fireball. The biggest factor was that nobody was willing to speak up or acknowledge in either cockpit that there was uncertainty and an unsafe situation. Yes these are two western countries, but after the wreck western aviation culture changed dramatically as a significant emphasis was put on what amounts to "see something? say something!!" (a.k.a. crew resource management, CRM). CRM has been very slow to trickle down to, for instance, East Asian airlines where deference to authority has a much stronger hold. Take a look at the Asiana wreck at SFO. Two pilots in the cockpit were repeatedly calling out significant mistakes, but the pilot flying ignored them. Neither of the other pilots took control of the situation and the plane was flown straight into the ground. Training, as well, seems to be something American pilots are pretty prickly about. After a Continental regional airline (Colgan Air) wrecked the solution was deemed to be requiring more pilot training (despite the fact that experience was NOT the problem in this crash). For all the belly aching about the guy in the left set of the Ethiopian Air jet having only a few hundred hours — up until 2013 the FAA only required 250 hours of experience to get a certificate allowing commercial flight (ATP). The requirement now is 1,500 hours, but it sure doesn't seem like American air travel has become dramatically safer since 2013. I don't think passion is the right word, but the USA has a much stronger general aviation culture than many other counties. Someone living in America is going to have many more opportunities to fly a civilian plane than someone living in, for instance, South Korea. The military experience may even be detrimental as it's often going to focus on strict hierarchies (see CRM) when this may create safety problems. Edit: I want to add that Indonesian aviation is notoriously unsafe and most Indonesian airlines have been banned from EU airspace (with some allowed back more recently). Lion Air, in particular, has a bad record of wrecking planes and lots of allegations about falsifying maintenance records. Hell, there is that one Lion Air captain who posts cockpit videos on youtube (including at least one showing some startlingly sloppy behavior). But if you look at flight 610 specifically you'll start to see a lot of things that would put even the best pilots in a bad situation. Even looking at the data from flightaware should've provoked a bit of an "are these pilots REALLY that bad?" response. A certain amount of initial suspicion was warranted, especially since pilot error is an extremely common cause of crashes even in western countries. A more continued drive to vilify the JT610 pilots or excuse Boeing's behavior is, IMO, out of line.
7952 8y ago
It is hard to imagine how any 737 pilot would be unaware of the problem and resulting Boeing advice given the massive amount of attention this has reviewed. Regardless of training issues I find it hard to believe that any pilot would be so indifferent as to ignore this.
- simion314 8y ago
  So you blame the pilot that he is not training itself in the new hidden changes of the airplane? Isn't Boeing duty to create the checklists/procedures for the possible issue ? or we let this work for the pilots internet forums? Though from the article it appears that pilots followed all the official procedures,
  - 7952 8y ago
    Of course it is Boeing and airlines responsibility. But if for some reason that training was absent I would expect pilot to seek the information themselves. To suggest otherwise is an insult to their intelligence and professionalism. Of course pilots are going to take an interest in crashes on the aeroplane they fly! Particularly when it is the biggest aviation story in years. Porbably something that they discuss regularly with other pilots. That is why I think the poor training angle is implausible for this particular issue and just prejudice.
    - CaptainZapp 8y ago
      But if for some reason that training was absent I would expect pilot to seek the information themselves. Here[1]'s a rather sobering read for you what happened to a pilot who tried exactly that. Spoiler alert: It was not a smart carreer move at that time. [1] https://qz.com/1584233/boeing-737-max-what-happened-when-one-us-pilot-asked-for-more-training/ https://qz.com/1584233/boeing-737-max-what-happened-when-one...

segmondy 8y ago

I was just having this discussion with my team yesterday. Easier to blame the pilot when they are dead. I use to believe most NTSB reports and that most errors were pilot errors. Probably true, but probably not as high either.