19 ms·

How China Turned a City into a Prison

120 points by sajid 8y ago

stevespang 8y ago
Hope they offer free internet to China without any firewall, will Chinese miltary shoot them down ?
0xcafecafe 8y ago
I liked the graphics heavy style of the article. Also, it doesn't touch upon the brutality of the indoctrination camps. There are reports of them being forced to eat pork, forced marriages,etc. I wonder if this is the closest we can get to NK outside NK.
- mrpopo 8y ago
  None of this is like a NK concentration camp. The camps in NK are rather designed around forced labour.
  - rst 8y ago
    There have been reports of forced labor in the Uighur camps as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china-forced-labor-camps-uighurs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china...
- gumby 8y ago
  > I liked the graphics heavy style of the article I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always good to have my assumptions questioned). I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly some people feel the opposite! I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show greater revenue than ordinary articles?
  - confiq 8y ago
    yeah, I thought the same. I don't like websites that require the sounds because these are videos. However, infographics are nice if done well. This one is done well
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    I was on the fence until they used the video to highlight the actual minders and the videocameras. That sort of thing is hard to convey with text. Has more impact visually.
- MayeulC 8y ago
  I couldn't see the article, I probably disabled javascript on that site some time ago. Luckily, with reader mode I had access to the text, though the images were left to my imagination.
dmix 8y ago
> The police sometimes take Uighurs' phones and check to make sure they have the compulsory software that monitors calls and messages. Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian video game.
rasengan 8y ago
Real talk, the entire country is a prison.
Hasz 8y ago
Good lord, that place is unbelievably dystopian. If it wasn't real, I would have called it a bad Orwellian fiction. Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear. From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. " Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities going on behind the camp doors. If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.
- gdhbcc 8y ago
  Are you describing china or western europeia countries like portugal?
  - powerapple 8y ago
    I believe England cities have more cameras
spectramax 8y ago
What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen. I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly. HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard. In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combinator-set-china-arm-ex-baidu-executive-ceo https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combin... I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
  - spectramax 8y ago
    We should totally criticize private prison industry and the whole racket - which we do. Journalists in America already talk about this, we debate, we fearlessly discuss. It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless. There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.
redm 8y ago
This article looks like digital “rags” should, its editorial, but the rich media, subtle sound, really bring it to life. It could do with a bit more text and details, but the format in general is stellar.
o10449366 8y ago
Google's pursuit of Dragonfly is only going to exacerbate this situation and they will actively be complicate in the censorship of these human rights violations and further enable the Chinese government's ability to suppress dissent. When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."[0] Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become significantly more suppressive and demanding: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-country/CN?hl=en https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by... Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will only further facilitate these human rights abuses. [0]: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
- jaxbot 8y ago
  On the other hand, censorship isn't perfect, and giving more access to the internet means more access to west and censored ideas by the masses. I can't predict how it will play out, but I was hoping that Dragonfly, if launched, would result in better access to information for Chinese who currently are already censored AND have worse access to the treasure trove of info on the internet than us in the West.
  - o10449366 8y ago
    That's the hope and the current justification for the project, but I don't find that argument very persuasive. Like I said, the situation in China has only gotten worse since Google said "enough is enough" and left. I find it hard to believe that Google's willingness to work with the Chinese government under current circumstances will somehow result in a more expanded internet than existed before. No one can predict how it will play out, but censorship technology has only improved since Google left. Having another search engine to choose from doesn't necessarily mean Chinese citizens will have access to more information, it just means that the Chinese government will have more avenues to disseminate misinformation. I could easily see millions of Chinese citizens being lulled into a false sense of security by Google's presence and fall prey to government watchers.
Ennis 8y ago
As technology workers our influence on the world around us is outsized in many ways. At some point we have to get more heavily involved in building civil society in local and global ways. Live and let live is a great mantra but it is failing because we don’t excercize the influence we have in ways that can prevent these things from happening. If Facebook is toxic it can and should be forced to change. If the Chinese state is complicit in such large scale crimes against humanity then it’s ability to trade with us can be severely curtailed to influence behaviour. Consider California alone passing laws that prohibit investment or even trade with companies who have investment from such states. The change will be swift.
zachguo 8y ago
Have you wondered why Xinjiang is like this now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party
- Ennis 8y ago
  How can civil conflict of any kind possibly justify treatment of civilians by their own Goverment in this way? Regardless of your intentions that comment is insensitive and avoidant of the conversation.
  - zachguo 8y ago
    It's not "civil conflict", it's terrorism led by a branch of Islamic State killing thousands of civilians. Have you wonder why all major media release articles about Xinjiang every week but ignore this important piece of information intentionally? What kind of consent are they manufacturing now? Let's make the conversation a bit more constructive, can you offer a better, effective and peaceful way to prevent future terrorist attacks from happening?
qwerty456127 8y ago
Although I personally find this pretty nightmarish yet I still can acknowledge it makes some sense and there probably is quite a number of people who would prefer to live in a surveillance-heavy police-state city (willing to trade privacy for guaranteed lack of criminals around). So I believe such a city should exist in every country just for them (in fact the more different kinds of places to choose from there are in a country - the better) as long as people outside don't get discriminated and as long as people who lived in the city before the surveillance system implementation are well-assisted and compensated in moving out.
pmarreck 8y ago
"Today, on 'Real-Life Dystopias'..."
Ozzie_osman 8y ago
I don't get why China is taking these extreme measures. I know there's a general feeling of anxiety towards Muslims (I'm Muslim) and I understand that China worries about these sorts of cultural issues. But this is really heavy-handed. Can someone explain this to me? Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior from any country. And point out that letting China get away with this means many other countries will do the same.
- zachguo 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19574179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19574179 Just curious. What does the Muslim community think is the best way of fighting against terrorism and extremists?
- justin66 8y ago
  An authoritarian one-party government correctly views religious organizations (or corporations, or large unions) as a threat to its power that needs to be managed. With regard to religion, they can try to cope with this by driving people out, "reeducating" people, or manipulating the leaders of the church (issuing threats or just appointing their own Catholic bishops, Buddhist Lamas, and so on). I believe you will find examples of these things happening in modern China.
- throwaway29875 8y ago
  There were numerous terrorist attacks, with one of the worst being in Kunming (2014) where 31 people were killed and more than 140 others injured.
- tropo 8y ago
  You realize that this and worse (actual death penalty for the wrong religion) is quite common, right? All across northern Africa and southern Asia, particularly where they meet around the Middle East, it is totally normal to take far more extreme measures. Until the Chinese can go preach atheism in Mecca without fear of decapitation, they don't seem to be all that extreme.
  - 8y ago
tuxxy 8y ago
When will founders decide that accepting Chinese VC funding is unethical? The money feeds back into a system that gives human rights very little value.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
OrgNet 8y ago
The UI is a bit funky and makes it hard to know when you can press the 'next' button when you are trying to do it as early as you should
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mstaoru 8y ago
I live in China for 10+ years now, and I believe it is turning the whole country into a prison. Here are some of my observations from Shanghai: - while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47 cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the subway station, - every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a beard, - for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check documents, - for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway, and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out, - our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed), and they keep asking "where do we spend our money", - car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound, - jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social credit, - a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the Party with many consequences, - my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family... Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like party loyalty and snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys. >>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed) Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's life by writing this on HN? >>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect never works.

120 points by sajid 8y ago

Hope they offer free internet to China without any firewall, will Chinese miltary shoot them down ?

I liked the graphics heavy style of the article. Also, it doesn't touch upon the brutality of the indoctrination camps. There are reports of them being forced to eat pork, forced marriages,etc. I wonder if this is the closest we can get to NK outside NK.

mrpopo 8y ago
None of this is like a NK concentration camp. The camps in NK are rather designed around forced labour.
- rst 8y ago
  There have been reports of forced labor in the Uighur camps as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china-forced-labor-camps-uighurs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china...
gumby 8y ago
> I liked the graphics heavy style of the article I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always good to have my assumptions questioned). I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly some people feel the opposite! I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show greater revenue than ordinary articles?
- confiq 8y ago
  yeah, I thought the same. I don't like websites that require the sounds because these are videos. However, infographics are nice if done well. This one is done well
- pmarreck 8y ago
  I was on the fence until they used the video to highlight the actual minders and the videocameras. That sort of thing is hard to convey with text. Has more impact visually.
MayeulC 8y ago
I couldn't see the article, I probably disabled javascript on that site some time ago. Luckily, with reader mode I had access to the text, though the images were left to my imagination.

dmix 8y ago

> The police sometimes take Uighurs' phones and check to make sure they have the compulsory software that monitors calls and messages. Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian video game.

rasengan 8y ago

Real talk, the entire country is a prison.

Hasz 8y ago

Good lord, that place is unbelievably dystopian. If it wasn't real, I would have called it a bad Orwellian fiction. Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear. From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. " Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities going on behind the camp doors. If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.

gdhbcc 8y ago
Are you describing china or western europeia countries like portugal?
- powerapple 8y ago
  I believe England cities have more cameras

spectramax 8y ago

What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen. I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly. HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard. In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.

WillPostForFood 8y ago
https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combinator-set-china-arm-ex-baidu-executive-ceo https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combin... I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
- spectramax 8y ago
  We should totally criticize private prison industry and the whole racket - which we do. Journalists in America already talk about this, we debate, we fearlessly discuss. It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless. There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.

redm 8y ago

This article looks like digital “rags” should, its editorial, but the rich media, subtle sound, really bring it to life. It could do with a bit more text and details, but the format in general is stellar.

o10449366 8y ago

Google's pursuit of Dragonfly is only going to exacerbate this situation and they will actively be complicate in the censorship of these human rights violations and further enable the Chinese government's ability to suppress dissent. When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."[0] Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become significantly more suppressive and demanding: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-country/CN?hl=en https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by... Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will only further facilitate these human rights abuses. [0]: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...

jaxbot 8y ago
On the other hand, censorship isn't perfect, and giving more access to the internet means more access to west and censored ideas by the masses. I can't predict how it will play out, but I was hoping that Dragonfly, if launched, would result in better access to information for Chinese who currently are already censored AND have worse access to the treasure trove of info on the internet than us in the West.
- o10449366 8y ago
  That's the hope and the current justification for the project, but I don't find that argument very persuasive. Like I said, the situation in China has only gotten worse since Google said "enough is enough" and left. I find it hard to believe that Google's willingness to work with the Chinese government under current circumstances will somehow result in a more expanded internet than existed before. No one can predict how it will play out, but censorship technology has only improved since Google left. Having another search engine to choose from doesn't necessarily mean Chinese citizens will have access to more information, it just means that the Chinese government will have more avenues to disseminate misinformation. I could easily see millions of Chinese citizens being lulled into a false sense of security by Google's presence and fall prey to government watchers.

Ennis 8y ago

As technology workers our influence on the world around us is outsized in many ways. At some point we have to get more heavily involved in building civil society in local and global ways. Live and let live is a great mantra but it is failing because we don’t excercize the influence we have in ways that can prevent these things from happening. If Facebook is toxic it can and should be forced to change. If the Chinese state is complicit in such large scale crimes against humanity then it’s ability to trade with us can be severely curtailed to influence behaviour. Consider California alone passing laws that prohibit investment or even trade with companies who have investment from such states. The change will be swift.

zachguo 8y ago

Have you wondered why Xinjiang is like this now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party

Ennis 8y ago
How can civil conflict of any kind possibly justify treatment of civilians by their own Goverment in this way? Regardless of your intentions that comment is insensitive and avoidant of the conversation.
- zachguo 8y ago
  It's not "civil conflict", it's terrorism led by a branch of Islamic State killing thousands of civilians. Have you wonder why all major media release articles about Xinjiang every week but ignore this important piece of information intentionally? What kind of consent are they manufacturing now? Let's make the conversation a bit more constructive, can you offer a better, effective and peaceful way to prevent future terrorist attacks from happening?

qwerty456127 8y ago

Although I personally find this pretty nightmarish yet I still can acknowledge it makes some sense and there probably is quite a number of people who would prefer to live in a surveillance-heavy police-state city (willing to trade privacy for guaranteed lack of criminals around). So I believe such a city should exist in every country just for them (in fact the more different kinds of places to choose from there are in a country - the better) as long as people outside don't get discriminated and as long as people who lived in the city before the surveillance system implementation are well-assisted and compensated in moving out.

pmarreck 8y ago

"Today, on 'Real-Life Dystopias'..."

Ozzie_osman 8y ago

I don't get why China is taking these extreme measures. I know there's a general feeling of anxiety towards Muslims (I'm Muslim) and I understand that China worries about these sorts of cultural issues. But this is really heavy-handed. Can someone explain this to me? Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior from any country. And point out that letting China get away with this means many other countries will do the same.

zachguo 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19574179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19574179 Just curious. What does the Muslim community think is the best way of fighting against terrorism and extremists?
justin66 8y ago
An authoritarian one-party government correctly views religious organizations (or corporations, or large unions) as a threat to its power that needs to be managed. With regard to religion, they can try to cope with this by driving people out, "reeducating" people, or manipulating the leaders of the church (issuing threats or just appointing their own Catholic bishops, Buddhist Lamas, and so on). I believe you will find examples of these things happening in modern China.
throwaway29875 8y ago
There were numerous terrorist attacks, with one of the worst being in Kunming (2014) where 31 people were killed and more than 140 others injured.
tropo 8y ago
You realize that this and worse (actual death penalty for the wrong religion) is quite common, right? All across northern Africa and southern Asia, particularly where they meet around the Middle East, it is totally normal to take far more extreme measures. Until the Chinese can go preach atheism in Mecca without fear of decapitation, they don't seem to be all that extreme.
- 8y ago

tuxxy 8y ago

When will founders decide that accepting Chinese VC funding is unethical? The money feeds back into a system that gives human rights very little value.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

OrgNet 8y ago

The UI is a bit funky and makes it hard to know when you can press the 'next' button when you are trying to do it as early as you should

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mstaoru 8y ago

I live in China for 10+ years now, and I believe it is turning the whole country into a prison. Here are some of my observations from Shanghai: - while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47 cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the subway station, - every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a beard, - for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check documents, - for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway, and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out, - our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed), and they keep asking "where do we spend our money", - car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound, - jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social credit, - a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the Party with many consequences, - my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family... Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.

kamaal 8y ago
>>our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like party loyalty and snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys. >>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed) Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's life by writing this on HN? >>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect never works.