4 ms·

Lots of even non-conservative people don't accept trans movement. It's quite a high bar if only trans-ok people are considered sane enough to participate in eth

by mantas 8y ago

Lots of even non-conservative people don't accept trans movement. It's quite a high bar if only trans-ok people are considered sane enough to participate in ethics board. E.g. I'm 100% against trans participating in sports. It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"?

webXL 8y ago
No, you're just thinking aloud (and you earned some downvotes!) A word of advice: don't even respond to someone claiming a black woman is racist/"transphobe" just because she has conservative beliefs. There's no coming back for this person or anyone who thinks that is a sane comment.
- mantas 8y ago
  Eh, precious internet points are not that important anyway. I agree it's a waste of my time to respond to comments like that. But on the other hand, letting those comments dominate the public space unchallenged is just legitimising their views. Which leads to vocal minority getting even bigger and louder. At the end of the day, it's the most vocal people who set the playrules. And I'm not a fan of ever-more-progressive rules, CoCs and legislations.
adjkant 8y ago
To break this down a bit instead of only downvoting: > I'm 100% against trans participating in sports There's a nuanced argument to be made here. > It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. > It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. > Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"? Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future.
- mantas 8y ago
  > This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. I understand biology that born-male will be stronger in many sports than born-female even after a lot of hormone therapy (or maybe vice-versa in some sports). Born-female taking male hormones will have advantage over regular female as well in many cases. You got gender disphoria and need a treatment for it? Sure. But there're side effects. Just like for many treatments. > This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined buy affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. > Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future. I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    First, nothing you responded to clears up anything about your negative assumption that transgender people change for sports titles. That will always be transphobic and doesn't look at all into what the life of a trans person today or in the past has looked like. But the body and hormone levels absolutely do affect physical sports, you're right. If you want to dig into hormones, what about intersex people? What about people classified as women with significantly higher testosterone levels? Despite the classification most hospitals do, a surprising amount of births show non-traditional genitalia, and if you go beyond the external looks then the waters only get murkier. How many athletes are actually not traditionally male or female but were simply never classified as such medically due to a lack of awareness and education? Do you then want to have all sports competitions separated based on hormone levels instead of sex/gender? > I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined by affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. But you give no argument for the unworthiness of it and instead start from the assumption. Not only that, but you paint with a very broad brush and are not digging into any of the nuance. That doesn't scream openness and combined with other things you said again comes off as ignorance or lack of education on the subject. > I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future. That definition will only go the other way as more people become educated on trans people. What defines transphobia is ignorance, not gusts of cultural wind. What would make your actions change will have to be you, not the classification of them. As an aside generally, being transphobic or racist or sexist should not define you - it's a chance to learn and understand. It's not an identity, despite how it is assigned like one to many public figures these days. What's much more important than never saying or doing something sexist/racist/transphobic/etc is being open to changing and understanding to not do it in the future. Really it's just listening and understanding other people's experiences.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name When has that happened?
- mantas 8y ago
  Google for trans ex-men competing as women and you'll get quite a few hits. Sure, nobody says that they transition just to win something. But having participated in amateur-ish sports, boy if some people don't take it too far to win even insignificant prizes using very dirty shortcuts. And some of those transitions do look fishy AF to say the least. 5sec googling: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender-weightlifter-breaks-womens-record/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender...
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    From your original comment I understood that your concern was with men pretending to be women to win in sports. Are you now saying that there is a problem with trans women competing in sports? There is a difference between someone transitioning from one gender to the other and someone pretending to be a woman, for whatever reason. The "5-second googling" example you give is a of a transgendered woman who is also an athlete. I don't see how this fits in with "men who pretend to be women to win".
    - vokep 8y ago
      What they're trying to get at is that a MtF trans person is still biologically male, no matter what, therefore has an unfair advantage and should not be considered to be on the same level as biological women. The simple solution I think is that sports should be sex based, not gender based.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
        I've been following Caster Semenya's case for a while. What you suggest is not a simple solution at all, I'm afraid. The issue of gender is much simpler- one just asks the person. The issue of sex seems to have become way too complicated in recent years.

by mantas 8y ago

webXL 8y ago

No, you're just thinking aloud (and you earned some downvotes!) A word of advice: don't even respond to someone claiming a black woman is racist/"transphobe" just because she has conservative beliefs. There's no coming back for this person or anyone who thinks that is a sane comment.

mantas 8y ago
Eh, precious internet points are not that important anyway. I agree it's a waste of my time to respond to comments like that. But on the other hand, letting those comments dominate the public space unchallenged is just legitimising their views. Which leads to vocal minority getting even bigger and louder. At the end of the day, it's the most vocal people who set the playrules. And I'm not a fan of ever-more-progressive rules, CoCs and legislations.

adjkant 8y ago

To break this down a bit instead of only downvoting: > I'm 100% against trans participating in sports There's a nuanced argument to be made here. > It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. > It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. > Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"? Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future.

mantas 8y ago
> This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. I understand biology that born-male will be stronger in many sports than born-female even after a lot of hormone therapy (or maybe vice-versa in some sports). Born-female taking male hormones will have advantage over regular female as well in many cases. You got gender disphoria and need a treatment for it? Sure. But there're side effects. Just like for many treatments. > This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined buy affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. > Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future. I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future.
- adjkant 8y ago
  First, nothing you responded to clears up anything about your negative assumption that transgender people change for sports titles. That will always be transphobic and doesn't look at all into what the life of a trans person today or in the past has looked like. But the body and hormone levels absolutely do affect physical sports, you're right. If you want to dig into hormones, what about intersex people? What about people classified as women with significantly higher testosterone levels? Despite the classification most hospitals do, a surprising amount of births show non-traditional genitalia, and if you go beyond the external looks then the waters only get murkier. How many athletes are actually not traditionally male or female but were simply never classified as such medically due to a lack of awareness and education? Do you then want to have all sports competitions separated based on hormone levels instead of sex/gender? > I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined by affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. But you give no argument for the unworthiness of it and instead start from the assumption. Not only that, but you paint with a very broad brush and are not digging into any of the nuance. That doesn't scream openness and combined with other things you said again comes off as ignorance or lack of education on the subject. > I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future. That definition will only go the other way as more people become educated on trans people. What defines transphobia is ignorance, not gusts of cultural wind. What would make your actions change will have to be you, not the classification of them. As an aside generally, being transphobic or racist or sexist should not define you - it's a chance to learn and understand. It's not an identity, despite how it is assigned like one to many public figures these days. What's much more important than never saying or doing something sexist/racist/transphobic/etc is being open to changing and understanding to not do it in the future. Really it's just listening and understanding other people's experiences.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

>> It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name When has that happened?

mantas 8y ago
Google for trans ex-men competing as women and you'll get quite a few hits. Sure, nobody says that they transition just to win something. But having participated in amateur-ish sports, boy if some people don't take it too far to win even insignificant prizes using very dirty shortcuts. And some of those transitions do look fishy AF to say the least. 5sec googling: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender-weightlifter-breaks-womens-record/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender...
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  From your original comment I understood that your concern was with men pretending to be women to win in sports. Are you now saying that there is a problem with trans women competing in sports? There is a difference between someone transitioning from one gender to the other and someone pretending to be a woman, for whatever reason. The "5-second googling" example you give is a of a transgendered woman who is also an athlete. I don't see how this fits in with "men who pretend to be women to win".
  - vokep 8y ago
    What they're trying to get at is that a MtF trans person is still biologically male, no matter what, therefore has an unfair advantage and should not be considered to be on the same level as biological women. The simple solution I think is that sports should be sex based, not gender based.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
      I've been following Caster Semenya's case for a while. What you suggest is not a simple solution at all, I'm afraid. The issue of gender is much simpler- one just asks the person. The issue of sex seems to have become way too complicated in recent years.