7 ms·

They refund them. Why is this an issue?

ohithereyou 8y ago
It's an issue if there were ebooks exclusive to Microsoft and not available anywhere else. You've lost access to something that you can't get access to (legally) again at any price.
- nil-sec 8y ago
  These books also don't exist in print?
  - ohithereyou 8y ago
    The ebook no longer exists. That's the point. Whether or not the item is available in print is irrelevant as the person who paid for it did not pay for a physical copy.
- sdinsn 8y ago
  Well, is that actually the case for any books?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
gnicholas 8y ago
Annotations would presumably be lost as well (if the platform supported them).
- nil-sec 8y ago
  Maybe. But these are all hypotheticals. The article presents it as I should be morally disgusted by this move. I don't really see it.
  - gnicholas 8y ago
    Hypothetical? Every major ebook platform offers annotations (and I just checked — this platform did too). MS apparently recognizes the additional inconvenience to people who have annotated, as they are offering an extra $25 to anyone who has made annotations. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4497396 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4497396 I agree that this closure is not world-ending, and I think the point of the article is that if MS can do this to your ebooks, then other big tech companies could do it to your other content too.
    - nil-sec 8y ago
      What do people annotate generally that's worth 25$? I'm genuinely curious.
      - gnicholas 8y ago
        College students highlight and put notes in books.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Your thoughts? Deeply engaging with a book, particularly a non-fiction one, involves more than just bouncing words off your retinas. Personally, while I might not expend the effort on some random novel (though I do highlight quotes I find particularly insightful or funny), I do make a lot of in-line notes & highlights on non-fiction books, both paper and digital. I'd be really pissed off if a book I studied disappeared with all annotations. That's why I learned to procure PDFs of e-books I care about, and I recently started to maintain a separate folder with "reading notes", into which I retype my annotations and thoughts on them after I'm done with reading (this means essentially re-reading the book, albeit much faster, as I have annotations to guide me to important thoughts).
  - Alterlife 8y ago
    You're getting down-voted, but I agree with you on this particular point. The vendor is providing a full refund to customers including an additional $25 credit for customers who used the annotation service. DRM is an annoying customer unfriendly solution to a problem that I'm not convinced exists... but people have been given full access to these books for a while. They've been able to read them from date of purchase until now. Some of them are probably finished reading the books and I'm sure "more than a few people" have exported their books to open formats. Microsoft has handled this as gracefully as it could, all things told.
cf498 8y ago
People bought these ebooks for a reason. Refunding solves nothing if you want the ebook. If someone replaced my bookcase with a check i would be rather pissed too.
- nil-sec 8y ago
  Yes and they enjoyed them and probably forgot about them already. If someone would buy my old books I'd be thrilled for most of them. For some selected others devastated, but these I would copy. If they wanted to chip in with another 25$ to pay for my sweet annotations I probably wouldn't even accept it.
  - mikro2nd 8y ago
    Others of us re-read books over and over and over again and would prefer to keep doing so.
rogual 8y ago
This is a bit like that scene in the Godfather where the mafia smash some reporters' cameras, then chuck some money on the ground for them. Yeah, it's a bit classier than common theft, but it's not exactly kosher either.
- nil-sec 8y ago
  The concept of ownership is not necessarily the same for digital content. Streaming services for example extended this idea and I don’t believe this is a bad thing. It gives us access to more content for less money. Yes, someone can take it away from you again but there are many advantages to this type of distribution that you could not enjoy if there was a guarantee for lifetime ownership.
gpm 8y ago
You buy a book from me. One day I decide I want to reverse that transaction so I walk up to you, rip the book out of your hands, and drop some money. I just committed theft and should go to jail. Once you sell something you don't have the right to take it back if you later regret the transaction.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >Once you sell something you don't have the right to take it back if you later regret the transaction. Microsoft did not sell the books (or their content), though.
  - gpm 8y ago
    So says the terms of service (that no one reads). How many people who bought those books do you think understood they were buying a revocable license that gave microsoft the right to remotely delete them from their devices?
    - WorldMaker 8y ago
      According to Microsoft statistics and the fact they are paying 100% refunds to every user, the answer to "how many" in this actual situation is probably "very few".
LocalPCGuy 8y ago
Some people interact with books differently than you do. You might be ok with the refund. Others aren't. But everyone is forced to take it regardless. Maybe just accept that people have different points of view on this, instead of feigning disbelief that this is even an issue.

It's an issue if there were ebooks exclusive to Microsoft and not available anywhere else. You've lost access to something that you can't get access to (legally) again at any price.

nil-sec 8y ago
These books also don't exist in print?
- ohithereyou 8y ago
  The ebook no longer exists. That's the point. Whether or not the item is available in print is irrelevant as the person who paid for it did not pay for a physical copy.
sdinsn 8y ago
Well, is that actually the case for any books?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

gnicholas 8y ago

Annotations would presumably be lost as well (if the platform supported them).

nil-sec 8y ago
Maybe. But these are all hypotheticals. The article presents it as I should be morally disgusted by this move. I don't really see it.
- gnicholas 8y ago
  Hypothetical? Every major ebook platform offers annotations (and I just checked — this platform did too). MS apparently recognizes the additional inconvenience to people who have annotated, as they are offering an extra $25 to anyone who has made annotations. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4497396 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4497396 I agree that this closure is not world-ending, and I think the point of the article is that if MS can do this to your ebooks, then other big tech companies could do it to your other content too.
  - nil-sec 8y ago
    What do people annotate generally that's worth 25$? I'm genuinely curious.
    - gnicholas 8y ago
      College students highlight and put notes in books.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Your thoughts? Deeply engaging with a book, particularly a non-fiction one, involves more than just bouncing words off your retinas. Personally, while I might not expend the effort on some random novel (though I do highlight quotes I find particularly insightful or funny), I do make a lot of in-line notes & highlights on non-fiction books, both paper and digital. I'd be really pissed off if a book I studied disappeared with all annotations. That's why I learned to procure PDFs of e-books I care about, and I recently started to maintain a separate folder with "reading notes", into which I retype my annotations and thoughts on them after I'm done with reading (this means essentially re-reading the book, albeit much faster, as I have annotations to guide me to important thoughts).
- Alterlife 8y ago
  You're getting down-voted, but I agree with you on this particular point. The vendor is providing a full refund to customers including an additional $25 credit for customers who used the annotation service. DRM is an annoying customer unfriendly solution to a problem that I'm not convinced exists... but people have been given full access to these books for a while. They've been able to read them from date of purchase until now. Some of them are probably finished reading the books and I'm sure "more than a few people" have exported their books to open formats. Microsoft has handled this as gracefully as it could, all things told.

cf498 8y ago

People bought these ebooks for a reason. Refunding solves nothing if you want the ebook. If someone replaced my bookcase with a check i would be rather pissed too.

nil-sec 8y ago
Yes and they enjoyed them and probably forgot about them already. If someone would buy my old books I'd be thrilled for most of them. For some selected others devastated, but these I would copy. If they wanted to chip in with another 25$ to pay for my sweet annotations I probably wouldn't even accept it.
- mikro2nd 8y ago
  Others of us re-read books over and over and over again and would prefer to keep doing so.

rogual 8y ago

This is a bit like that scene in the Godfather where the mafia smash some reporters' cameras, then chuck some money on the ground for them. Yeah, it's a bit classier than common theft, but it's not exactly kosher either.

nil-sec 8y ago
The concept of ownership is not necessarily the same for digital content. Streaming services for example extended this idea and I don’t believe this is a bad thing. It gives us access to more content for less money. Yes, someone can take it away from you again but there are many advantages to this type of distribution that you could not enjoy if there was a guarantee for lifetime ownership.

gpm 8y ago

You buy a book from me. One day I decide I want to reverse that transaction so I walk up to you, rip the book out of your hands, and drop some money. I just committed theft and should go to jail. Once you sell something you don't have the right to take it back if you later regret the transaction.

BeetleB 8y ago
>Once you sell something you don't have the right to take it back if you later regret the transaction. Microsoft did not sell the books (or their content), though.
- gpm 8y ago
  So says the terms of service (that no one reads). How many people who bought those books do you think understood they were buying a revocable license that gave microsoft the right to remotely delete them from their devices?
  - WorldMaker 8y ago
    According to Microsoft statistics and the fact they are paying 100% refunds to every user, the answer to "how many" in this actual situation is probably "very few".

LocalPCGuy 8y ago

Some people interact with books differently than you do. You might be ok with the refund. Others aren't. But everyone is forced to take it regardless. Maybe just accept that people have different points of view on this, instead of feigning disbelief that this is even an issue.