7 ms·

Don't downplay the issue. It's not that she's conservative; I'm sure Google's executive groups are full of relatively conservative people. No, the problem with

Don't downplay the issue. It's not that she's conservative; I'm sure Google's executive groups are full of relatively conservative people. No, the problem with her is that she's a transphobe and racist.

mantas 8y ago
Lots of even non-conservative people don't accept trans movement. It's quite a high bar if only trans-ok people are considered sane enough to participate in ethics board. E.g. I'm 100% against trans participating in sports. It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"?
- webXL 8y ago
  No, you're just thinking aloud (and you earned some downvotes!) A word of advice: don't even respond to someone claiming a black woman is racist/"transphobe" just because she has conservative beliefs. There's no coming back for this person or anyone who thinks that is a sane comment.
  - mantas 8y ago
    Eh, precious internet points are not that important anyway. I agree it's a waste of my time to respond to comments like that. But on the other hand, letting those comments dominate the public space unchallenged is just legitimising their views. Which leads to vocal minority getting even bigger and louder. At the end of the day, it's the most vocal people who set the playrules. And I'm not a fan of ever-more-progressive rules, CoCs and legislations.
- adjkant 8y ago
  To break this down a bit instead of only downvoting: > I'm 100% against trans participating in sports There's a nuanced argument to be made here. > It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. > It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. > Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"? Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future.
  - mantas 8y ago
    > This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. I understand biology that born-male will be stronger in many sports than born-female even after a lot of hormone therapy (or maybe vice-versa in some sports). Born-female taking male hormones will have advantage over regular female as well in many cases. You got gender disphoria and need a treatment for it? Sure. But there're side effects. Just like for many treatments. > This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined buy affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. > Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future. I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future.
    - adjkant 8y ago
      First, nothing you responded to clears up anything about your negative assumption that transgender people change for sports titles. That will always be transphobic and doesn't look at all into what the life of a trans person today or in the past has looked like. But the body and hormone levels absolutely do affect physical sports, you're right. If you want to dig into hormones, what about intersex people? What about people classified as women with significantly higher testosterone levels? Despite the classification most hospitals do, a surprising amount of births show non-traditional genitalia, and if you go beyond the external looks then the waters only get murkier. How many athletes are actually not traditionally male or female but were simply never classified as such medically due to a lack of awareness and education? Do you then want to have all sports competitions separated based on hormone levels instead of sex/gender? > I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined by affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. But you give no argument for the unworthiness of it and instead start from the assumption. Not only that, but you paint with a very broad brush and are not digging into any of the nuance. That doesn't scream openness and combined with other things you said again comes off as ignorance or lack of education on the subject. > I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future. That definition will only go the other way as more people become educated on trans people. What defines transphobia is ignorance, not gusts of cultural wind. What would make your actions change will have to be you, not the classification of them. As an aside generally, being transphobic or racist or sexist should not define you - it's a chance to learn and understand. It's not an identity, despite how it is assigned like one to many public figures these days. What's much more important than never saying or doing something sexist/racist/transphobic/etc is being open to changing and understanding to not do it in the future. Really it's just listening and understanding other people's experiences.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  >> It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name When has that happened?
  - mantas 8y ago
    Google for trans ex-men competing as women and you'll get quite a few hits. Sure, nobody says that they transition just to win something. But having participated in amateur-ish sports, boy if some people don't take it too far to win even insignificant prizes using very dirty shortcuts. And some of those transitions do look fishy AF to say the least. 5sec googling: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender-weightlifter-breaks-womens-record/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender...
    - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
      From your original comment I understood that your concern was with men pretending to be women to win in sports. Are you now saying that there is a problem with trans women competing in sports? There is a difference between someone transitioning from one gender to the other and someone pretending to be a woman, for whatever reason. The "5-second googling" example you give is a of a transgendered woman who is also an athlete. I don't see how this fits in with "men who pretend to be women to win".
      - vokep 8y ago
        What they're trying to get at is that a MtF trans person is still biologically male, no matter what, therefore has an unfair advantage and should not be considered to be on the same level as biological women. The simple solution I think is that sports should be sex based, not gender based.
        YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
        I've been following Caster Semenya's case for a while. What you suggest is not a simple solution at all, I'm afraid. The issue of gender is much simpler- one just asks the person. The issue of sex seems to have become way too complicated in recent years.
Bendingo 8y ago
> transphobe and racist These attributes are neither objective not illegal. Google are hypocrites; they want diversity, but not diversity of thought.
- sytelus 8y ago
  Not everything immoral has to be illegal. Good people draw line at former, not later.
  - mantas 8y ago
    And morality is very subjective, thin line. E.g. is it moral for male-to-female trans to compete in women sports events?
    - adjkant 8y ago
      Instead of focusing on that, how about focusing on issues that affect the lives of most trans people, not a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure, not to mention the near nonexistant impact that has on anyone else? Why play on the thin lines instead of focusing on the issues that have the largest and broadest effects on people?
      - tsukurimashou 8y ago
        >not a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure do you think the number of trans people compared to the world population isn't "a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure"?
        tremon 8y ago
        Yes, I think it isn't. Here[0] is a meta-study that illustrates the prevalence of transgenderism across continents and across time. It seems that as the concept of transgenderism becomes normalized, its prevalence increases. This is the same effect we have seen with homosexuality, so it's not terribly surprising. The short summary: as a lower bound, probably more than 1 in 10k people (0.01%) would identify as transgender. Including the DSM definition of gender dysphoria as an indicator, that figure rises to 1% or possibly even higher. Now, my question to you: how small should a subset be to be statistically insignificant? For popular reference (and I apologize for using this example again), keep in mind that the global prevalence of Judaism is 0.2%. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20141205022609/http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/TransgenderASIA/paper-how-many-trans-people-are-there.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20141205022609/http://web.hku.hk...
ummonk 8y ago
Terms like "transphobe" and "racist" get thrown around so liberally that I've stopped caring if someone gets labelled that.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
I've never heard of Kay Coles James before but going from what is in the article, she is expressing a concern that legally recognising the gender of trans women (but not trans men?) risks disenfranchising non-trans women further. This is an existing concern of many, that must be discussed. I disagree strongly that recognition of trans women takes away something from other womens' rights (if nothing else because there are so few trans women), but the opinion seems to be widespread enough that it must be confronted, and by that I don't mean with knee-jerk reactions and twitter flamewars. Like, really debated. So that it can be put to rest and we can all move on to more productive debates. But, calling someone who expresses that view a transphobe and a racist is not debating them.

mantas 8y ago

Lots of even non-conservative people don't accept trans movement. It's quite a high bar if only trans-ok people are considered sane enough to participate in ethics board. E.g. I'm 100% against trans participating in sports. It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"?

webXL 8y ago
No, you're just thinking aloud (and you earned some downvotes!) A word of advice: don't even respond to someone claiming a black woman is racist/"transphobe" just because she has conservative beliefs. There's no coming back for this person or anyone who thinks that is a sane comment.
- mantas 8y ago
  Eh, precious internet points are not that important anyway. I agree it's a waste of my time to respond to comments like that. But on the other hand, letting those comments dominate the public space unchallenged is just legitimising their views. Which leads to vocal minority getting even bigger and louder. At the end of the day, it's the most vocal people who set the playrules. And I'm not a fan of ever-more-progressive rules, CoCs and legislations.
adjkant 8y ago
To break this down a bit instead of only downvoting: > I'm 100% against trans participating in sports There's a nuanced argument to be made here. > It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name. This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. > It's even more disgusting when it's celebrated as diversity or progressive or whatever. This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. > Does that make me just a "relatively conservative" or full-on "transphobe"? Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future.
- mantas 8y ago
  > This is not that nuanced argument. I can assure you no one that is trans "pretends" to be a woman for sports records. That comment (as well as the word choice of "disgusting") shows a severe lack of understanding of trans people. I understand biology that born-male will be stronger in many sports than born-female even after a lot of hormone therapy (or maybe vice-versa in some sports). Born-female taking male hormones will have advantage over regular female as well in many cases. You got gender disphoria and need a treatment for it? Sure. But there're side effects. Just like for many treatments. > This shows a particular bias against "progressive/diversity" ideas and colors the comments before them with an even worse light that highlights the lack of understanding. I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined buy affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. > Just like anything, there are gradients and being transphobic now doesn't mean you have to be in the future. I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    First, nothing you responded to clears up anything about your negative assumption that transgender people change for sports titles. That will always be transphobic and doesn't look at all into what the life of a trans person today or in the past has looked like. But the body and hormone levels absolutely do affect physical sports, you're right. If you want to dig into hormones, what about intersex people? What about people classified as women with significantly higher testosterone levels? Despite the classification most hospitals do, a surprising amount of births show non-traditional genitalia, and if you go beyond the external looks then the waters only get murkier. How many athletes are actually not traditionally male or female but were simply never classified as such medically due to a lack of awareness and education? Do you then want to have all sports competitions separated based on hormone levels instead of sex/gender? > I'm considering ideas on their own merit, not how they're labeled. And it's disgusting that progressive/diversity label was ruined by affairs like that. And yes, I definitely have bias against ideas that seem to have a label they're not worth of. But you give no argument for the unworthiness of it and instead start from the assumption. Not only that, but you paint with a very broad brush and are not digging into any of the nuance. That doesn't scream openness and combined with other things you said again comes off as ignorance or lack of education on the subject. > I hope definition of "transphobic" will change and I won't be called one in the future. That definition will only go the other way as more people become educated on trans people. What defines transphobia is ignorance, not gusts of cultural wind. What would make your actions change will have to be you, not the classification of them. As an aside generally, being transphobic or racist or sexist should not define you - it's a chance to learn and understand. It's not an identity, despite how it is assigned like one to many public figures these days. What's much more important than never saying or doing something sexist/racist/transphobic/etc is being open to changing and understanding to not do it in the future. Really it's just listening and understanding other people's experiences.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> It's disgusting when men pretend to be women just to have a record on their name When has that happened?
- mantas 8y ago
  Google for trans ex-men competing as women and you'll get quite a few hits. Sure, nobody says that they transition just to win something. But having participated in amateur-ish sports, boy if some people don't take it too far to win even insignificant prizes using very dirty shortcuts. And some of those transitions do look fishy AF to say the least. 5sec googling: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender-weightlifter-breaks-womens-record/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/transgender...
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    From your original comment I understood that your concern was with men pretending to be women to win in sports. Are you now saying that there is a problem with trans women competing in sports? There is a difference between someone transitioning from one gender to the other and someone pretending to be a woman, for whatever reason. The "5-second googling" example you give is a of a transgendered woman who is also an athlete. I don't see how this fits in with "men who pretend to be women to win".
    - vokep 8y ago
      What they're trying to get at is that a MtF trans person is still biologically male, no matter what, therefore has an unfair advantage and should not be considered to be on the same level as biological women. The simple solution I think is that sports should be sex based, not gender based.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
        I've been following Caster Semenya's case for a while. What you suggest is not a simple solution at all, I'm afraid. The issue of gender is much simpler- one just asks the person. The issue of sex seems to have become way too complicated in recent years.

Bendingo 8y ago

> transphobe and racist These attributes are neither objective not illegal. Google are hypocrites; they want diversity, but not diversity of thought.

sytelus 8y ago
Not everything immoral has to be illegal. Good people draw line at former, not later.
- mantas 8y ago
  And morality is very subjective, thin line. E.g. is it moral for male-to-female trans to compete in women sports events?
  - adjkant 8y ago
    Instead of focusing on that, how about focusing on issues that affect the lives of most trans people, not a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure, not to mention the near nonexistant impact that has on anyone else? Why play on the thin lines instead of focusing on the issues that have the largest and broadest effects on people?
    - tsukurimashou 8y ago
      >not a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure do you think the number of trans people compared to the world population isn't "a subset so small to be statistically insignificant by any measure"?
      - tremon 8y ago
        Yes, I think it isn't. Here[0] is a meta-study that illustrates the prevalence of transgenderism across continents and across time. It seems that as the concept of transgenderism becomes normalized, its prevalence increases. This is the same effect we have seen with homosexuality, so it's not terribly surprising. The short summary: as a lower bound, probably more than 1 in 10k people (0.01%) would identify as transgender. Including the DSM definition of gender dysphoria as an indicator, that figure rises to 1% or possibly even higher. Now, my question to you: how small should a subset be to be statistically insignificant? For popular reference (and I apologize for using this example again), keep in mind that the global prevalence of Judaism is 0.2%. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20141205022609/http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/TransgenderASIA/paper-how-many-trans-people-are-there.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20141205022609/http://web.hku.hk...

ummonk 8y ago

Terms like "transphobe" and "racist" get thrown around so liberally that I've stopped caring if someone gets labelled that.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

I've never heard of Kay Coles James before but going from what is in the article, she is expressing a concern that legally recognising the gender of trans women (but not trans men?) risks disenfranchising non-trans women further. This is an existing concern of many, that must be discussed. I disagree strongly that recognition of trans women takes away something from other womens' rights (if nothing else because there are so few trans women), but the opinion seems to be widespread enough that it must be confronted, and by that I don't mean with knee-jerk reactions and twitter flamewars. Like, really debated. So that it can be put to rest and we can all move on to more productive debates. But, calling someone who expresses that view a transphobe and a racist is not debating them.