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> creating Cloud Native Buildpacks (CNB), a standard for turning source code into Docker images without the need for Dockerfile This is a solution in search of

> creating Cloud Native Buildpacks (CNB), a standard for turning source code into Docker images without the need for Dockerfile This is a solution in search of a problem. Please stop.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
I understand and accept that you're fine with Dockerfiles, but your statement is overbroad: Heroku and Pivotal aren't the only ones in the industry frustrated at the shortcomings of Dockerfiles. I'm glad alternatives are growing in number. (Others include Buildah, to be included in RHEL 8; and the Docker image support for Bazel.)
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  As well as Kaniko, Makisu, Orca and I've genuinely lost track. Though buildpacks differ from most of these by skipping Dockerfiles altogether.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    Thanks for that list. If I'm not mistaken, Buildah and Bazel skip Dockerfiles as well; not sure of the three you just named.
    - jacques_chester 8y ago
      I forgot Jib! It also skips Dockerfiles.
jacques_chester 8y ago
I work for Pivotal. I beg to differ. We see problems that Dockerfiles create at massive scale in massive organisations, mostly around predictable upgrades, provenance, ease of CVE remediation, not having tens of thousands of running containers with mystery meat and so forth. Right now for one of our standard large customers, remediating a critical CVE may take several hours, whether they are using current-generation buildpacks or Dockerfiles and build farms. CNBs will drive that figure down to minutes. Thousands of distinct applications, dozens of sites, several tens of thousands of containers, billions of requests per day, patched a few minutes after the buildpack releases from automation observing hundreds of distinct upstream dependencies across a dozen language ecosystems. Anyone with enough money and people and patience can build and maintain this kind of a capability for themselves. But it's a lot cheaper and easier to pay someone else to maintain it for you.

> creating Cloud Native Buildpacks (CNB), a standard for turning source code into Docker images without the need for Dockerfile This is a solution in search of a problem. Please stop.

jkaplowitz 8y ago

I understand and accept that you're fine with Dockerfiles, but your statement is overbroad: Heroku and Pivotal aren't the only ones in the industry frustrated at the shortcomings of Dockerfiles. I'm glad alternatives are growing in number. (Others include Buildah, to be included in RHEL 8; and the Docker image support for Bazel.)

jacques_chester 8y ago
As well as Kaniko, Makisu, Orca and I've genuinely lost track. Though buildpacks differ from most of these by skipping Dockerfiles altogether.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Thanks for that list. If I'm not mistaken, Buildah and Bazel skip Dockerfiles as well; not sure of the three you just named.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    I forgot Jib! It also skips Dockerfiles.

jacques_chester 8y ago

I work for Pivotal. I beg to differ. We see problems that Dockerfiles create at massive scale in massive organisations, mostly around predictable upgrades, provenance, ease of CVE remediation, not having tens of thousands of running containers with mystery meat and so forth. Right now for one of our standard large customers, remediating a critical CVE may take several hours, whether they are using current-generation buildpacks or Dockerfiles and build farms. CNBs will drive that figure down to minutes. Thousands of distinct applications, dozens of sites, several tens of thousands of containers, billions of requests per day, patched a few minutes after the buildpack releases from automation observing hundreds of distinct upstream dependencies across a dozen language ecosystems. Anyone with enough money and people and patience can build and maintain this kind of a capability for themselves. But it's a lot cheaper and easier to pay someone else to maintain it for you.