4 ms·

While I like a lot of the ideas described on the website, I don’t like how they’re written in the present tense and like Cone can currently do all these things

While I like a lot of the ideas described on the website, I don’t like how they’re written in the present tense and like Cone can currently do all these things when in fact they’re just aspirations and aren’t even designed in detail. I had to go to a file in the Github to figure out what actually exists. I support your quest but actually implementing the language is the hard part. Languages like Rust don’t even mention features on their websites even when they have working implementations that just aren’t stable yet, it would be nice if Cone’s gave a clear picture of what exists and what’s an aspiration.

0xDEEPFAC 8y ago
I disagree, a language is merely a standard defined by reference documentation and sometimes certified by ANSI and the like. The fact that things are documented means thought has been put into the design, but... yea unimplemented things should be labeled
- ModernMech 8y ago
  I think it used to be the case that a language and it's implementation were considered separate things. Today it seems like they are conflated to the point where people take the position that if it's not implemented, it's not actually a language. This view discounts the great languages of the past that were never implemented due to platform immaturity.
  - pushpop 8y ago
    I think the issue was more that languages often used to have multiple implementations which differed and no real standard beyond the de facto (whichever was most commonly used). You saw this with the variations of BASIC on the micro computers, the different Pascal and C compilers of the 70s and 80s etc. But even back then, languages without a compiler were still nothing more than an academic exercise which entertained a comparatively few of the overall engineers around at that time. So I don’t think much has changed in that regard aside the expectation that a language should now have a reference implementation. And even then that’s not always the case (eg Perl 6).
sparkie 8y ago
Cone is developed as a proof of concept for the author's paper Gradual Memory Management[1]. The author is experienced in language development and has previously written Acorn. It was seen as more appropriate to write a new language rather than trying to tack the idea onto an existing language. [1]:http://jondgoodwin.com/pling/gmm.pdf http://jondgoodwin.com/pling/gmm.pdf
- duneroadrunner 8y ago
  If maximum (or just more) flexibility wrt memory safety is the goal, I might suggest the author take a look at SaferCPlusPlus. In particular, it supports memory safe pointer/references[1][2] that can target objects associated with different allocators (including stack allocated objects) without, as the author desires, imposing the "sometimes confining" restrictions that Rust does. And in terms of data race safety, it allows you to hold "read-lock" and "write-lock" pointer/references simultaneously in the same thread [3], which adds a little extra functionality (and maybe convenience). [1] shameless plug: https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#registered-pointers https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#registered-... [2] https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#norad-pointers https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#norad-point... [3] https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#tasyncsharedv2readwriteaccessrequester https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#tasyncshare...
  - anp 8y ago
    It's good that you include "shameless plug" in these posts to clarify, but it would be much much clearer if you included more explicit phrasing along the lines of "I only post to HN to plug my project called SaferCPlusPlus, not ever to talk about the submitted article. You can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner." https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner."
    - Zanni 8y ago
      You've got some stray punctuation that breaks your link. Fixed link for the lazy: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner
jondgoodwin 8y ago
That's a fair critique, and I will edit the website to make that disconnect between current reality and aspiration clearer (more than the disclaimer I have on the home page). Because there is so much left to do, I have made no effort to market the language for any sort of use. So, I got caught flat-footed that a website I am still building up piece by piece, primarily for personal clarity and private communications, has gotten premature publicity. I will adjust accordingly.
- Camto 8y ago
  >I have made no effort to market the language for any sort of use. Didn't you say it was mainly for the 3d web or something?
  - jondgoodwin 8y ago
    Yes, but that's not what I meant in that quote. Cone is not ready for any use right now. So, I am making no effort to market it right now. When it is at least MVP (at least a year or more away), I will get more serious about marketing, including especially for 3D web.
- trishume 8y ago
  Thanks and good luck with your project!

0xDEEPFAC 8y ago

I disagree, a language is merely a standard defined by reference documentation and sometimes certified by ANSI and the like. The fact that things are documented means thought has been put into the design, but... yea unimplemented things should be labeled

ModernMech 8y ago
I think it used to be the case that a language and it's implementation were considered separate things. Today it seems like they are conflated to the point where people take the position that if it's not implemented, it's not actually a language. This view discounts the great languages of the past that were never implemented due to platform immaturity.
- pushpop 8y ago
  I think the issue was more that languages often used to have multiple implementations which differed and no real standard beyond the de facto (whichever was most commonly used). You saw this with the variations of BASIC on the micro computers, the different Pascal and C compilers of the 70s and 80s etc. But even back then, languages without a compiler were still nothing more than an academic exercise which entertained a comparatively few of the overall engineers around at that time. So I don’t think much has changed in that regard aside the expectation that a language should now have a reference implementation. And even then that’s not always the case (eg Perl 6).

sparkie 8y ago

Cone is developed as a proof of concept for the author's paper Gradual Memory Management[1]. The author is experienced in language development and has previously written Acorn. It was seen as more appropriate to write a new language rather than trying to tack the idea onto an existing language. [1]:http://jondgoodwin.com/pling/gmm.pdf http://jondgoodwin.com/pling/gmm.pdf

duneroadrunner 8y ago
If maximum (or just more) flexibility wrt memory safety is the goal, I might suggest the author take a look at SaferCPlusPlus. In particular, it supports memory safe pointer/references[1][2] that can target objects associated with different allocators (including stack allocated objects) without, as the author desires, imposing the "sometimes confining" restrictions that Rust does. And in terms of data race safety, it allows you to hold "read-lock" and "write-lock" pointer/references simultaneously in the same thread [3], which adds a little extra functionality (and maybe convenience). [1] shameless plug: https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#registered-pointers https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#registered-... [2] https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#norad-pointers https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#norad-point... [3] https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#tasyncsharedv2readwriteaccessrequester https://github.com/duneroadrunner/SaferCPlusPlus#tasyncshare...
- anp 8y ago
  It's good that you include "shameless plug" in these posts to clarify, but it would be much much clearer if you included more explicit phrasing along the lines of "I only post to HN to plug my project called SaferCPlusPlus, not ever to talk about the submitted article. You can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner." https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner."
  - Zanni 8y ago
    You've got some stray punctuation that breaks your link. Fixed link for the lazy: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=duneroadrunner

jondgoodwin 8y ago

That's a fair critique, and I will edit the website to make that disconnect between current reality and aspiration clearer (more than the disclaimer I have on the home page). Because there is so much left to do, I have made no effort to market the language for any sort of use. So, I got caught flat-footed that a website I am still building up piece by piece, primarily for personal clarity and private communications, has gotten premature publicity. I will adjust accordingly.

Camto 8y ago
>I have made no effort to market the language for any sort of use. Didn't you say it was mainly for the 3d web or something?
- jondgoodwin 8y ago
  Yes, but that's not what I meant in that quote. Cone is not ready for any use right now. So, I am making no effort to market it right now. When it is at least MVP (at least a year or more away), I will get more serious about marketing, including especially for 3D web.
trishume 8y ago
Thanks and good luck with your project!