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That's not true, there are large retailers that directly accept BTC, like Newegg [1] and Overstock [2]. There are also services like Bitrefill to purchase gift

That's not true, there are large retailers that directly accept BTC, like Newegg [1] and Overstock [2]. There are also services like Bitrefill to purchase gift cards using various cryptocurrencies for use at places that don't directly accept BTC: Amazon, Ebay, Walmart, Best Buy, and Target to name a few of the 750+ supported [3]. [1] https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/16-6277/index.html https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/16-6277/index.html [2] https://help.overstock.com/help/s/article/Bitcoin https://help.overstock.com/help/s/article/Bitcoin [3] https://www.bitrefill.com/?hl=en https://www.bitrefill.com/?hl=en

arcticbull 8y ago
There are more that did and stopped than do. And to your own point of the ones that do, the vast majority do so via intermediary like bitpay because they dont want BTC they just want money. The trajectory of acceptance has a negative slope. Even Overstock doesn't accept BTC on mobile according to their help page. Further, since you've got to foot the transaction fee (~$1.50) instead of the merchant and the merchant has already padded their prices for a 3% credit card fee, you're getting royally screwed. I pay with my 2% cash back credit card, get all sorts of warranties and protections, and you pay 3% + $1.50 and get nothing but losing your ability to file your taxes with TurboTax because they dont support crypto on Form 8949.
- alphast0rm 8y ago
  > Nobody takes BTC in exchange for goods and services, absolutely nobody. I was simply trying to show that your original statement was hyperbole, as there are clearly notable retailers that do. Also as a consumer, I don't see why your point about intermediaries is relevant (barring the marginal price difference between them). If you are planning on purchasing something from a business you don't really care if they are using Intuit or Square to process credit cards transactions, just that they accept credit cards for payments.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    My point about intermediaries is that you are paying more to use Bitcoin than I am to use my credit card, and getting a lot less for it. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.30. I get a 2% rebate, so I paid $10.09, and for that $0.09 I get a one-month interest free loan, chargeback abilities and numerous warranties. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.30. You have to buy the $10.30 from an exchange for $10.51 (assuming 2% fee). You then pay another $1.26 for the BTC transaction and get back nothing, for a total of $12.07. That means your total fees paid are 23X the total fees I paid. No chargebacks, no warranties, no loan, 23X higher fees. Then, you have to report your cost basis to the IRS and can't do your taxes easily. That makes your payment method inferior for any normal, legal purchase. That's one of the reasons buyers don't want it. Sellers don't want it because it exposes them to enormous FOREX risk. Yes, it's hyperbolic, however the fraction of businesses accepting BTC is already practically zero and falling, it's not unfair to round it to zero. Otherwise we would just be happy with Overstock.com gift cards as a medium of foreign exchange. After a 2% cash back rebate on a credit card their cost is negative.
    - Semaphor 7y ago
      Eh, if you really want to take cherry pick examples, let's take the lower 0,4% fee I pay to buy BTC. I get 0% cashback for my credit card (cashback is an exception in Germany, not the rule), and Coin Tracking Unlimited for one year is 0.037BTC (~$180.6525) instead of $185 paying with USD. And suddenly the point is 100% reversed and BTC is the clear winner and obviously far superior to Creditcards -.-
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        IMO I was picking a representative US example, but working one in Germany yields very comparable results. The difference is the interchange is capped 0.3% which means that the cash-back portion is irrelevant. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.03. In Germany I would get a 0% rebate, so I would pay $10.03, and for that $0.03 I would get a one-month interest free loan, chargeback abilities and numerous warranties. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.03. You have to buy the $10.03 from an exchange for $10.07 (assuming 0.4% fee). You then pay another $1.26 for the BTC transaction and get back nothing, for a total of $11.33. That means your total fees paid are 44X the total fees I paid. No chargebacks, no warranties, no loan, 44X higher fees. In Germany no tax liability is incurred AFAIK when using it as currency. That makes your payment method inferior for any normal, legal purchase. That's one of the reasons buyers don't want it. Sellers don't want it because it exposes them to enormous FOREX risk. Companies that offer crypto discounts are unicorns. Why would they? It's more expensive and more risky to offer it. The only reason I can think of to offer a crypto discount is if you're not reporting to tax authorities like cash-only restaurants. Your one counter-example is by no means representative, and in Germany, you're even worse off than in the US in the average case, by double.

arcticbull 8y ago

There are more that did and stopped than do. And to your own point of the ones that do, the vast majority do so via intermediary like bitpay because they dont want BTC they just want money. The trajectory of acceptance has a negative slope. Even Overstock doesn't accept BTC on mobile according to their help page. Further, since you've got to foot the transaction fee (~$1.50) instead of the merchant and the merchant has already padded their prices for a 3% credit card fee, you're getting royally screwed. I pay with my 2% cash back credit card, get all sorts of warranties and protections, and you pay 3% + $1.50 and get nothing but losing your ability to file your taxes with TurboTax because they dont support crypto on Form 8949.

alphast0rm 8y ago
> Nobody takes BTC in exchange for goods and services, absolutely nobody. I was simply trying to show that your original statement was hyperbole, as there are clearly notable retailers that do. Also as a consumer, I don't see why your point about intermediaries is relevant (barring the marginal price difference between them). If you are planning on purchasing something from a business you don't really care if they are using Intuit or Square to process credit cards transactions, just that they accept credit cards for payments.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  My point about intermediaries is that you are paying more to use Bitcoin than I am to use my credit card, and getting a lot less for it. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.30. I get a 2% rebate, so I paid $10.09, and for that $0.09 I get a one-month interest free loan, chargeback abilities and numerous warranties. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.30. You have to buy the $10.30 from an exchange for $10.51 (assuming 2% fee). You then pay another $1.26 for the BTC transaction and get back nothing, for a total of $12.07. That means your total fees paid are 23X the total fees I paid. No chargebacks, no warranties, no loan, 23X higher fees. Then, you have to report your cost basis to the IRS and can't do your taxes easily. That makes your payment method inferior for any normal, legal purchase. That's one of the reasons buyers don't want it. Sellers don't want it because it exposes them to enormous FOREX risk. Yes, it's hyperbolic, however the fraction of businesses accepting BTC is already practically zero and falling, it's not unfair to round it to zero. Otherwise we would just be happy with Overstock.com gift cards as a medium of foreign exchange. After a 2% cash back rebate on a credit card their cost is negative.
  - Semaphor 7y ago
    Eh, if you really want to take cherry pick examples, let's take the lower 0,4% fee I pay to buy BTC. I get 0% cashback for my credit card (cashback is an exception in Germany, not the rule), and Coin Tracking Unlimited for one year is 0.037BTC (~$180.6525) instead of $185 paying with USD. And suddenly the point is 100% reversed and BTC is the clear winner and obviously far superior to Creditcards -.-
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      IMO I was picking a representative US example, but working one in Germany yields very comparable results. The difference is the interchange is capped 0.3% which means that the cash-back portion is irrelevant. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.03. In Germany I would get a 0% rebate, so I would pay $10.03, and for that $0.03 I would get a one-month interest free loan, chargeback abilities and numerous warranties. COGS: $10.00, retail after CC markup: $10.03. You have to buy the $10.03 from an exchange for $10.07 (assuming 0.4% fee). You then pay another $1.26 for the BTC transaction and get back nothing, for a total of $11.33. That means your total fees paid are 44X the total fees I paid. No chargebacks, no warranties, no loan, 44X higher fees. In Germany no tax liability is incurred AFAIK when using it as currency. That makes your payment method inferior for any normal, legal purchase. That's one of the reasons buyers don't want it. Sellers don't want it because it exposes them to enormous FOREX risk. Companies that offer crypto discounts are unicorns. Why would they? It's more expensive and more risky to offer it. The only reason I can think of to offer a crypto discount is if you're not reporting to tax authorities like cash-only restaurants. Your one counter-example is by no means representative, and in Germany, you're even worse off than in the US in the average case, by double.