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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just for myself, of course. Things have been done that I might not have agreed with. It does hurt when the "Facebook

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just for myself, of course. Things have been done that I might not have agreed with. It does hurt when the "Facebook is evil" meme gets thrown in my face, especially from so-called friends. So yeah, morale takes a hit, but it's not clear how my leaving would make it any better. Don't you want for there to be some good people at Facebook? Or do you deny the possibility, as if people who were good at their last company magically become bad the moment they accept the offer? Believing in no good outcome except extinction is a working definition of hate, and I have no time for that. I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard.

blueboo 8y ago
Ah, the first--or maybe second--week of freshman ethics. Change from the inside, or from the outside... Take some responsibility. Are you evil for signing on? No, but let's not pretend they're welcoming you because you're going to shine a light on unethical practices. Are you evil for staying? That's a judgment call you have to make in your own heart-of-hearts, measuring what you've enabled and contributed, who you've enriched--against the moral influence you've exerted (not to mention the questionable influence you've empowered.) > I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard. There is a standard. I offer you a baseline: if you're solving technical problems and you're systematically failing to influence the non-technical ones, you shouldn't be there. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your failure is likely measurably less than systematic. But enough so? Bear in mind the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world, a better product, a better community...elsewhere.
- notacoward 8y ago
  > the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world...elsewhere. And how many of the critics are doing that? How many are making a positive moral difference at their own companies, however good or bad those companies already are? I posit that moving forward at a "bad" company is more valuable than standing still at a "good" one. In my group at Red Hat, generally regarded as a "good" company, our project plans were influenced by demands from some pretty shady customers - big banks, government agencies, even a Russian propaganda agency. At Facebook, my work supports data scientists who are detecting and eliminating that same kind of propaganda. But I'm supposed to feel worse about myself now? You talk trash about freshman ethics, but that's exactly the kind you yourself are engaging in. I was in fact a philosophy major long ago (though more logic and metaphysics than ethics) so I should know. ;) It has been over thirty years since I found such simplistic arguments even slightly amusing.
opportune 8y ago
so not only are you just following orders, but when people point that out to you, that makes them shitty because it hurts your feelings to know that you're selling out?
- notacoward 8y ago
  No, it doesn't make them shitty. If they don't have any suggestions other than extinction, they were shitty already.

blueboo 8y ago

Ah, the first--or maybe second--week of freshman ethics. Change from the inside, or from the outside... Take some responsibility. Are you evil for signing on? No, but let's not pretend they're welcoming you because you're going to shine a light on unethical practices. Are you evil for staying? That's a judgment call you have to make in your own heart-of-hearts, measuring what you've enabled and contributed, who you've enriched--against the moral influence you've exerted (not to mention the questionable influence you've empowered.) > I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard. There is a standard. I offer you a baseline: if you're solving technical problems and you're systematically failing to influence the non-technical ones, you shouldn't be there. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your failure is likely measurably less than systematic. But enough so? Bear in mind the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world, a better product, a better community...elsewhere.

notacoward 8y ago
> the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world...elsewhere. And how many of the critics are doing that? How many are making a positive moral difference at their own companies, however good or bad those companies already are? I posit that moving forward at a "bad" company is more valuable than standing still at a "good" one. In my group at Red Hat, generally regarded as a "good" company, our project plans were influenced by demands from some pretty shady customers - big banks, government agencies, even a Russian propaganda agency. At Facebook, my work supports data scientists who are detecting and eliminating that same kind of propaganda. But I'm supposed to feel worse about myself now? You talk trash about freshman ethics, but that's exactly the kind you yourself are engaging in. I was in fact a philosophy major long ago (though more logic and metaphysics than ethics) so I should know. ;) It has been over thirty years since I found such simplistic arguments even slightly amusing.

opportune 8y ago

so not only are you just following orders, but when people point that out to you, that makes them shitty because it hurts your feelings to know that you're selling out?

notacoward 8y ago
No, it doesn't make them shitty. If they don't have any suggestions other than extinction, they were shitty already.