5 ms·

I both agree with you, and disagree. Using your analogy... you've got 20,000 guests over at your house, and a bunch of them are telling you that you're being an

I both agree with you, and disagree. Using your analogy... you've got 20,000 guests over at your house, and a bunch of them are telling you that you're being an asshole. You like the party you're having, and want to keep the party going. Do you listen to them and consider that there might be some validity to what they're saying? Or kick them out? There's nothing saying that he must listen to them, but it's pragmatically probably a good idea.

matz1 8y ago
The thing is with linux is the the party is going to keep on going regardless. He should just ignore them, because what are they going to do ? leave ? fork ? Then go ahead fork.
- staticassertion 8y ago
  Not pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, not contribute billions in development time, etc. This is already happening. People already choose not to contribute to Linux and Fuschia isn't just some hobby project.
  - matz1 8y ago
    I don't think all of this really matter to him anyway. He started this linux thing for free.
    - staticassertion 8y ago
      Then why the attitude adjustment?
      - matz1 8y ago
        Which i don't think he should do.
        eropple 8y ago
        You don't think Linus should reflect on his behavior from time to time and maybe change it if he no longer feels that it's a good idea for him personally or professionally? He should keep doing the same things, damn all the consequences, just because other people--people he may respect and trust--have told him it's probably not a great idea? That's a hot take, indeed. Me, I think one should be constantly reevaluating what one believes and making sure one's actions are congruent with the life one wants to lead, but--you do you, I guess.
        matz1 8y ago
        >You don't think Linus should reflect on his behavior from time to time and maybe change it if he no longer feels that it's a good idea for him personally or professionally? He should, only if he is truly care about that.
        eropple 8y ago
        And yet all your posts implicitly assume that he doesn't care. Doesn't that level of cynicism...hurt? Like, personally hurt? It's not good, dude.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        matz1 8y ago
        Thats the trait i personally like and admire about linus, the fuck you，my way or highway attitude.
        eropple 8y ago
        So because you, for reasons that if I'm being frank don't seem great, like that he does that, he shouldn't reflect on his actions and decide if they're actually congruent with the life he wants to lead and the example he wants to set for other people? Hm.
    - islanderfun 8y ago
      > He started this linux thing for free In 1991 as a college student. The situation has changed drastically. I'd guess his primary source of income matters greatly if it were to disappear or drastically shrink.
  - mbrumlow 8y ago
    So were are back to "if you offend me, I take your job away". He clearly has added value. He has run one of the MOST successful projects EVER. Most CEOs are never this successful, to so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say.
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      > so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say He has done a lot of things right! But that doesn't mean that he needs to continue with personal attacks during patch reviews and feature discussions in a public forum. Does it seem possible that the quality of the project could have remained the way it was without things like this being said to contributors (no matter how misguided they are): > Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE FCKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the fck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on? Yes, reading anything one byte at a time is generally a bad idea. That patch should not be accepted. But... saying things like that probably isn't necessary to get the point across. People have been telling him that for a long time, and he's finally sat back, reflected on it, and decided to change. I don't think anyone's suggesting that the project hasn't been wildly successful, nor that it hasn't generally been a great project to contribute to. But over the years there's been some pretty wild things said to nominally-valued contributors, and some of them have left over it.
      - matz1 8y ago
        That is if you care about other people feeling.
    - staticassertion 8y ago
      He's not a CEO. I'd be shocked to see a CEO behave this way and have a board that continues to support them.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Fuschia isn't existing because Linus occasionally flames people though. It's because Google has tons of employees who want to write operating systems, and maybe because of the desire for driver ABI stability.
rjf72 8y ago
One problem with your nuance here is that this is the internet. Numbers mean basically nothing when one group with extreme views can then go 'alert' their echo chamber to an 'incident.' Whether the only comment you receive is me or whether it's me and my 50,000 adherents should not sway you more or less. What should or should not sway you is the logic in what I say. And so too with Linus whether 10 people say something or a million people say something is nowhere near as relevant as what they say.
- eropple 8y ago
  "The logic in what [you] say" is part of it. Your humanity does, too. "That hurts me and you should stop" need not be "logical" to be deserving of respect.
  - rjf72 8y ago
    Do you not intuitively see the problem with your argument? "You claiming women should be treated equally to men hurts me, you should stop." Do you care or respect this view? What if you consider the fact that there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people that would completely genuinely state and agree with the above? Does that somehow make it a more legitimate claim? Obviously not. This is precisely why logic is what matters. Appeals to emotion can be used to argue for great or awful things using the exact same language which ultimately makes the entire notion completely pointless. This is likely the reason the word pathetic has the etymology that it does. At the point one is appealing to emotion, they've long since lost the thread. I'd also add here that behind nearly all great travesties in history there was some charismatic leader who likely thought he was in the right, swaying people largely through appeals to emotion to his cause. And this is because emotion sidesteps the necessity of actually having to show that e.g. the people you are demonizing are actually bad.
    - eropple 8y ago
      I see the asserted problem. I discount it, in this very specific sphere, because at present the protests of "but the logics!" is acting as a sinecure for shitheads. Not empowering shitheads is more valuable to me than Emerson's foolish consistency. When the situation on the ground changes--and it hasn't yet, don't @ me--I will reevaluate my position, because my brain works and I do not feel tethered to immutable positions (on topics like this, at least).
mbrumlow 8y ago
Expect you are wrong. Its like having a party of 20,000 guest over and a hand full of them are complaining. I have read enough comments to know that nowhere the majority of people seem to care what Linus says.
- eropple 8y ago
  Enough seem to have a problem that Linus thinks that, to be a better and more effective leader, he has to improve his behavior. Nobody made him do it. He listened and reflected and changed. That's what a decent leader, and a decent human, does. Why does that have you, to use a Linus-ism, so hot under the T-shirt?
  - mbrumlow 8y ago
    I don't buy that for a second. I think Linus is smart, and knows there is a mob out there ready to enforce and pounce for language they don't like. Its odd, that people keep saying this. He is the leader of one of the largest most successful projects mankind has seen. He has the most diverse portfolio from around the world. But yet, some how what he has done has not worked, and is not working...
    - eropple 8y ago
      Linus has always struck me as a decent guy. Decent people look at what they're doing and decide if it's actually the way they want to live their lives. The cynicism in your take speaks more to you than to him. And the rest of your post blows my mind--the idea that something can work and yet be imperfect, can work and yet can be better, is so foreign to you? Me, I'm always trying to improve. Why shouldn't he?
      - mbrumlow 8y ago
        > something can work and yet be imperfect. I never said it was perfect, I just commented on what he was doing was worked well considering the goals of the project. > can work and yet can be better, is so foreign to you? Absolutely not, I just think the methods being used to achieve the "better" in question is actively making it worse.

matz1 8y ago

The thing is with linux is the the party is going to keep on going regardless. He should just ignore them, because what are they going to do ? leave ? fork ? Then go ahead fork.

staticassertion 8y ago
Not pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, not contribute billions in development time, etc. This is already happening. People already choose not to contribute to Linux and Fuschia isn't just some hobby project.
- matz1 8y ago
  I don't think all of this really matter to him anyway. He started this linux thing for free.
  - staticassertion 8y ago
    Then why the attitude adjustment?
    - matz1 8y ago
      Which i don't think he should do.
      - eropple 8y ago
        You don't think Linus should reflect on his behavior from time to time and maybe change it if he no longer feels that it's a good idea for him personally or professionally? He should keep doing the same things, damn all the consequences, just because other people--people he may respect and trust--have told him it's probably not a great idea? That's a hot take, indeed. Me, I think one should be constantly reevaluating what one believes and making sure one's actions are congruent with the life one wants to lead, but--you do you, I guess.
        matz1 8y ago
        >You don't think Linus should reflect on his behavior from time to time and maybe change it if he no longer feels that it's a good idea for him personally or professionally? He should, only if he is truly care about that.
        eropple 8y ago
        And yet all your posts implicitly assume that he doesn't care. Doesn't that level of cynicism...hurt? Like, personally hurt? It's not good, dude.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        matz1 8y ago
        Thats the trait i personally like and admire about linus, the fuck you，my way or highway attitude.
        eropple 8y ago
        So because you, for reasons that if I'm being frank don't seem great, like that he does that, he shouldn't reflect on his actions and decide if they're actually congruent with the life he wants to lead and the example he wants to set for other people? Hm.
  - islanderfun 8y ago
    > He started this linux thing for free In 1991 as a college student. The situation has changed drastically. I'd guess his primary source of income matters greatly if it were to disappear or drastically shrink.
- mbrumlow 8y ago
  So were are back to "if you offend me, I take your job away". He clearly has added value. He has run one of the MOST successful projects EVER. Most CEOs are never this successful, to so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say.
  - tonyarkles 8y ago
    > so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say He has done a lot of things right! But that doesn't mean that he needs to continue with personal attacks during patch reviews and feature discussions in a public forum. Does it seem possible that the quality of the project could have remained the way it was without things like this being said to contributors (no matter how misguided they are): > Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE FCKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the fck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on? Yes, reading anything one byte at a time is generally a bad idea. That patch should not be accepted. But... saying things like that probably isn't necessary to get the point across. People have been telling him that for a long time, and he's finally sat back, reflected on it, and decided to change. I don't think anyone's suggesting that the project hasn't been wildly successful, nor that it hasn't generally been a great project to contribute to. But over the years there's been some pretty wild things said to nominally-valued contributors, and some of them have left over it.
    - matz1 8y ago
      That is if you care about other people feeling.
  - staticassertion 8y ago
    He's not a CEO. I'd be shocked to see a CEO behave this way and have a board that continues to support them.
- repolfx 8y ago
  Fuschia isn't existing because Linus occasionally flames people though. It's because Google has tons of employees who want to write operating systems, and maybe because of the desire for driver ABI stability.

rjf72 8y ago

One problem with your nuance here is that this is the internet. Numbers mean basically nothing when one group with extreme views can then go 'alert' their echo chamber to an 'incident.' Whether the only comment you receive is me or whether it's me and my 50,000 adherents should not sway you more or less. What should or should not sway you is the logic in what I say. And so too with Linus whether 10 people say something or a million people say something is nowhere near as relevant as what they say.

eropple 8y ago
"The logic in what [you] say" is part of it. Your humanity does, too. "That hurts me and you should stop" need not be "logical" to be deserving of respect.
- rjf72 8y ago
  Do you not intuitively see the problem with your argument? "You claiming women should be treated equally to men hurts me, you should stop." Do you care or respect this view? What if you consider the fact that there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people that would completely genuinely state and agree with the above? Does that somehow make it a more legitimate claim? Obviously not. This is precisely why logic is what matters. Appeals to emotion can be used to argue for great or awful things using the exact same language which ultimately makes the entire notion completely pointless. This is likely the reason the word pathetic has the etymology that it does. At the point one is appealing to emotion, they've long since lost the thread. I'd also add here that behind nearly all great travesties in history there was some charismatic leader who likely thought he was in the right, swaying people largely through appeals to emotion to his cause. And this is because emotion sidesteps the necessity of actually having to show that e.g. the people you are demonizing are actually bad.
  - eropple 8y ago
    I see the asserted problem. I discount it, in this very specific sphere, because at present the protests of "but the logics!" is acting as a sinecure for shitheads. Not empowering shitheads is more valuable to me than Emerson's foolish consistency. When the situation on the ground changes--and it hasn't yet, don't @ me--I will reevaluate my position, because my brain works and I do not feel tethered to immutable positions (on topics like this, at least).

mbrumlow 8y ago

Expect you are wrong. Its like having a party of 20,000 guest over and a hand full of them are complaining. I have read enough comments to know that nowhere the majority of people seem to care what Linus says.

eropple 8y ago
Enough seem to have a problem that Linus thinks that, to be a better and more effective leader, he has to improve his behavior. Nobody made him do it. He listened and reflected and changed. That's what a decent leader, and a decent human, does. Why does that have you, to use a Linus-ism, so hot under the T-shirt?
- mbrumlow 8y ago
  I don't buy that for a second. I think Linus is smart, and knows there is a mob out there ready to enforce and pounce for language they don't like. Its odd, that people keep saying this. He is the leader of one of the largest most successful projects mankind has seen. He has the most diverse portfolio from around the world. But yet, some how what he has done has not worked, and is not working...
  - eropple 8y ago
    Linus has always struck me as a decent guy. Decent people look at what they're doing and decide if it's actually the way they want to live their lives. The cynicism in your take speaks more to you than to him. And the rest of your post blows my mind--the idea that something can work and yet be imperfect, can work and yet can be better, is so foreign to you? Me, I'm always trying to improve. Why shouldn't he?
    - mbrumlow 8y ago
      > something can work and yet be imperfect. I never said it was perfect, I just commented on what he was doing was worked well considering the goals of the project. > can work and yet can be better, is so foreign to you? Absolutely not, I just think the methods being used to achieve the "better" in question is actively making it worse.