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If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen. If a developer submits patches or bits of code that haven't been tested and/or says dumb things that developer

If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen. If a developer submits patches or bits of code that haven't been tested and/or says dumb things that developers of that caliber shouldn't, I don't see any reason not to call them out publicly. Open source projects, open source comments. I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, even though I know offense is taken and not given. It seems like everyone is just so defensive anymore and for why? I'm not bothered by any of it.

staticassertion 8y ago
"You're a fucking moron" - Linus Torvalds
b_tterc_p 8y ago
Would you feel the same about getting insulted by random people for ambiguous design choices on an open source product for which you are the sole maintainer and have no accountability to anyone for?
DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
> I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone I don't understand this. Essentially, your comment comes down to "I don't care how other people feel. I want to say what makes me happy, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it." And that's fine, I guess, if that's how you want to live your life. But offense is both taken and given — it's a two-way street. If you say something and someone says "Hey, that upset me", then you now have a choice of whether to say similar things in the future. If you choose to say those things that you have been told are offensive to this person, then you get to deal with the repercussions of that choice. After all: "If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen."
- malvosenior 8y ago
  The window of what's considered offensive has widened to the point that nearly everything is offensive, up to and including staying silent on an issue. There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. What people want is for the grievance hunters to go away and/or toughen up.
  - delecti 8y ago
    Or possibly, a lot of people have always been kinda shit to each other, and it's only recently that people have felt confident in speaking out about it.
  - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
    > There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. I don't want to say that I don't believe these people exist (because I'm sure they do), but rather I don't think their presence is something you need to be overly concerned with because I think there are so shockingly few of them that it really isn't overly consequential. I think their existence is overhyped by people on the internet, because I've never met anyone in my life who has brought this up in the real world. Just handle things like that on a case-by-case basis. If all the people you interact with don't care... then you probably don't need to worry about it. But if there's someone who says "Hey, I don't like it when you say that", then perhaps take their opinion under consideration and determine what you want to do about it. The notion that you need to constantly be on guard about everything you say is completely absurd, unless you're a raging asshole whose comments regularly spark resentment in your conversational counterparts.
- sneak 8y ago
  “You can ignore the consequences of your actions. You cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring the consequences of your actions.”
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  Direct anecdote: A couple of years ago, I worked with a large team and there was a gay man on the team who was constantly yapping on about gay this and gay that, almost like he was looking for disapproval among the ranks. He then decided to do a legal union with his boyfriend and invited everyone. Those who did not attend were berated, verbally accused of this and that. I counseled everyone to simply ignore him and not take the bait, which ended up being sound judgement, because he took his leave shortly thereafter. I never engaged in ad-hominem attacks or retaliated against this man. I just refused to play his childish game of attacking people for some imagined reasons. Linus, Theo, and other large project leaders deal with actual idiots all the time. Serial idiots. Sometimes in the real world you have to step on toes to get someone's attention. It can often be done in "nicer" ways, but sometimes you have to "nuke them from orbit" just to be sure. Recently, my British uncle told me of a story about a woman in England who went apoplectic about a new tissue range having the marketing slogan "man-sized" tissues. Who cares? It's marketing. The company actually caved to please this woman. I would not have done so. My tissues, my slogan. Don't buy them if you're offended.
  - brenschluss 8y ago
    Why are you so offended about other people being offended? Why not just say, “this must be a big issue to them”? Why do you feel the need to prove that these things don’t offend you, and that thus they shouldn’t offend others?
    - stirfrykitty 8y ago
      I'm not "offended". I'm sick and tired of political correctness invading every aspect of life. Leave it for the politicians. I'm not going to change who I am to please someone else. Everyone else is already taken. Like most people, I have strong views on many things, and some of those things are hills worth dying for. Other things are more grey and I overlook them or simply don't care at all. It's come to a place now in society where even silence can be taken the wrong way. I've been accused of being politically incorrect over the years because I refuse to cotton to certain things the mainstream embraces, but I refuse to budge. My convictions are mine and mine alone. I don't try and change other people's convictions. But... if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything.
jcranmer 8y ago
I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never been bullied, or that any bullying you received was strictly as part of a process of initiation into the club of bullies (i.e., hazing). It turns out that people who have only been on the receiving end of bullying do not, in fact, like being bullied.
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  I have been bullied, but ended it quickly, because that's how I roll. I can take massive amounts of verbal assault (former Marine) and physical difficulties, but I do draw the line at actual bullying for the sake of bullying. I don't equate calling someone a "fucking moron" or similar, bullying. YMMV. Being former military has given me some pretty thick skin.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    You've entirely missed his point. You were "bullied" but "ended it quickly", meaning that there was no meaningful power differential between you and your "bully". Many (most?) bullied people don't have that luxury, and, to extend the analysis all the way back to Linus, none of Linus's victims did. You're not doing an especially good job of defending Linus on this thread. I don't think he'd find your arguments especially useful as a tool for persuading people that his previous behavior was acceptable. Your comparison between him and Theo de Raadt, by the way, was especially cringe-y.
    - tarsolya 8y ago
      While I agree with your point that most bullied people are rendered helpless because of a huge power differential, how can this be extended to a community based entirely on free association? Worst case, you stand up and leave. Compared to the military, where you are "kept" using a state's monopoly of deadly force, hence any bullyig situation is way much harder to resolve because you're unable to leave. Is everyone entitled to partake in communities like the kernel org if they so choose, even against it's founder's wishes? (Edited spelling)
stonogo 8y ago
> I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen.
- phissk 8y ago
  How about the snowflakes gtfo the kitchen.
stfwn 8y ago
Just something to think about: many people simply avoid people who have a default mad, cynical or otherwise negative attitude, but they wouldn’t say it to their face. The badass might say ‘Good riddance!’ (or “Can’t handle the heat? ...”), but they will miss many great opportunities.
jodrellblank 8y ago
How are you arguing in favour of being able to publically insult someone on a mailing list, but also saying “offence is taken not given?” If you think offence is only taken, you would reject the idea that your words are polite or offensive. Instead you accept that some choice of words is offensive, argue that it’s right to be offensive in some situations, then try to disclaim that by saying “you shouldn’t be offended, I wouldn’t be because i have a tough skin”. If offence is only taken, not given, you wouldn’t need a tough skin because there wouldn’t be anything to bounce off it.

staticassertion 8y ago

"You're a fucking moron" - Linus Torvalds

b_tterc_p 8y ago

Would you feel the same about getting insulted by random people for ambiguous design choices on an open source product for which you are the sole maintainer and have no accountability to anyone for?

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago

> I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone I don't understand this. Essentially, your comment comes down to "I don't care how other people feel. I want to say what makes me happy, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it." And that's fine, I guess, if that's how you want to live your life. But offense is both taken and given — it's a two-way street. If you say something and someone says "Hey, that upset me", then you now have a choice of whether to say similar things in the future. If you choose to say those things that you have been told are offensive to this person, then you get to deal with the repercussions of that choice. After all: "If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen."

malvosenior 8y ago
The window of what's considered offensive has widened to the point that nearly everything is offensive, up to and including staying silent on an issue. There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. What people want is for the grievance hunters to go away and/or toughen up.
- delecti 8y ago
  Or possibly, a lot of people have always been kinda shit to each other, and it's only recently that people have felt confident in speaking out about it.
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  > There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. I don't want to say that I don't believe these people exist (because I'm sure they do), but rather I don't think their presence is something you need to be overly concerned with because I think there are so shockingly few of them that it really isn't overly consequential. I think their existence is overhyped by people on the internet, because I've never met anyone in my life who has brought this up in the real world. Just handle things like that on a case-by-case basis. If all the people you interact with don't care... then you probably don't need to worry about it. But if there's someone who says "Hey, I don't like it when you say that", then perhaps take their opinion under consideration and determine what you want to do about it. The notion that you need to constantly be on guard about everything you say is completely absurd, unless you're a raging asshole whose comments regularly spark resentment in your conversational counterparts.
sneak 8y ago
“You can ignore the consequences of your actions. You cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring the consequences of your actions.”
stirfrykitty 8y ago
Direct anecdote: A couple of years ago, I worked with a large team and there was a gay man on the team who was constantly yapping on about gay this and gay that, almost like he was looking for disapproval among the ranks. He then decided to do a legal union with his boyfriend and invited everyone. Those who did not attend were berated, verbally accused of this and that. I counseled everyone to simply ignore him and not take the bait, which ended up being sound judgement, because he took his leave shortly thereafter. I never engaged in ad-hominem attacks or retaliated against this man. I just refused to play his childish game of attacking people for some imagined reasons. Linus, Theo, and other large project leaders deal with actual idiots all the time. Serial idiots. Sometimes in the real world you have to step on toes to get someone's attention. It can often be done in "nicer" ways, but sometimes you have to "nuke them from orbit" just to be sure. Recently, my British uncle told me of a story about a woman in England who went apoplectic about a new tissue range having the marketing slogan "man-sized" tissues. Who cares? It's marketing. The company actually caved to please this woman. I would not have done so. My tissues, my slogan. Don't buy them if you're offended.
- brenschluss 8y ago
  Why are you so offended about other people being offended? Why not just say, “this must be a big issue to them”? Why do you feel the need to prove that these things don’t offend you, and that thus they shouldn’t offend others?
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    I'm not "offended". I'm sick and tired of political correctness invading every aspect of life. Leave it for the politicians. I'm not going to change who I am to please someone else. Everyone else is already taken. Like most people, I have strong views on many things, and some of those things are hills worth dying for. Other things are more grey and I overlook them or simply don't care at all. It's come to a place now in society where even silence can be taken the wrong way. I've been accused of being politically incorrect over the years because I refuse to cotton to certain things the mainstream embraces, but I refuse to budge. My convictions are mine and mine alone. I don't try and change other people's convictions. But... if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything.

jcranmer 8y ago

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never been bullied, or that any bullying you received was strictly as part of a process of initiation into the club of bullies (i.e., hazing). It turns out that people who have only been on the receiving end of bullying do not, in fact, like being bullied.

stirfrykitty 8y ago
I have been bullied, but ended it quickly, because that's how I roll. I can take massive amounts of verbal assault (former Marine) and physical difficulties, but I do draw the line at actual bullying for the sake of bullying. I don't equate calling someone a "fucking moron" or similar, bullying. YMMV. Being former military has given me some pretty thick skin.
- tptacek 8y ago
  You've entirely missed his point. You were "bullied" but "ended it quickly", meaning that there was no meaningful power differential between you and your "bully". Many (most?) bullied people don't have that luxury, and, to extend the analysis all the way back to Linus, none of Linus's victims did. You're not doing an especially good job of defending Linus on this thread. I don't think he'd find your arguments especially useful as a tool for persuading people that his previous behavior was acceptable. Your comparison between him and Theo de Raadt, by the way, was especially cringe-y.
  - tarsolya 8y ago
    While I agree with your point that most bullied people are rendered helpless because of a huge power differential, how can this be extended to a community based entirely on free association? Worst case, you stand up and leave. Compared to the military, where you are "kept" using a state's monopoly of deadly force, hence any bullyig situation is way much harder to resolve because you're unable to leave. Is everyone entitled to partake in communities like the kernel org if they so choose, even against it's founder's wishes? (Edited spelling)

stonogo 8y ago

> I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen.

phissk 8y ago
How about the snowflakes gtfo the kitchen.

stfwn 8y ago

Just something to think about: many people simply avoid people who have a default mad, cynical or otherwise negative attitude, but they wouldn’t say it to their face. The badass might say ‘Good riddance!’ (or “Can’t handle the heat? ...”), but they will miss many great opportunities.

jodrellblank 8y ago

How are you arguing in favour of being able to publically insult someone on a mailing list, but also saying “offence is taken not given?” If you think offence is only taken, you would reject the idea that your words are polite or offensive. Instead you accept that some choice of words is offensive, argue that it’s right to be offensive in some situations, then try to disclaim that by saying “you shouldn’t be offended, I wouldn’t be because i have a tough skin”. If offence is only taken, not given, you wouldn’t need a tough skin because there wouldn’t be anything to bounce off it.