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I for one despise the political correctness that has occurred/is occurring in the current online communities. Anything and everything can and will be misconstru

I for one despise the political correctness that has occurred/is occurring in the current online communities. Anything and everything can and will be misconstrued to suit the needs of the "offended". Offense is taken, not given. I am sick and tired of the entire SJW mindset that has permeated the WWW and development circles. What was "innocent" a few years ago is now grounds for doxxing, shutting down of accounts, getting people fired, you name it. It seems that "tolerance" is only tolerated if it is agreed with. Voltaire comes to mind here. I never thought Linus was in bad form. His project, his rules. Ditto Theo de Raadt, who I think is a great project leader. I've heard him speak more than once, and he is a very nice guy. Like most leaders of tough projects, these guys endure massive amounts of BS from BS artists, and they need to be able to trounce the idiots and expose them. I have a feeling the majority of people would disagree with me anymore, but then again, my mindset and attitude were largely set by the military long ago, so I like strong leaders who don't brook BS.

staticassertion 8y ago
Yeah, crazy that people want to work on a project without being berated publicly and called incompetent on a mailing list. Those darn SJWs!!
- stirfrykitty 8y ago
  If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen. If a developer submits patches or bits of code that haven't been tested and/or says dumb things that developers of that caliber shouldn't, I don't see any reason not to call them out publicly. Open source projects, open source comments. I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, even though I know offense is taken and not given. It seems like everyone is just so defensive anymore and for why? I'm not bothered by any of it.
  - staticassertion 8y ago
    "You're a fucking moron" - Linus Torvalds
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    Would you feel the same about getting insulted by random people for ambiguous design choices on an open source product for which you are the sole maintainer and have no accountability to anyone for?
  - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
    > I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone I don't understand this. Essentially, your comment comes down to "I don't care how other people feel. I want to say what makes me happy, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it." And that's fine, I guess, if that's how you want to live your life. But offense is both taken and given — it's a two-way street. If you say something and someone says "Hey, that upset me", then you now have a choice of whether to say similar things in the future. If you choose to say those things that you have been told are offensive to this person, then you get to deal with the repercussions of that choice. After all: "If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen."
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      The window of what's considered offensive has widened to the point that nearly everything is offensive, up to and including staying silent on an issue. There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. What people want is for the grievance hunters to go away and/or toughen up.
      - delecti 8y ago
        Or possibly, a lot of people have always been kinda shit to each other, and it's only recently that people have felt confident in speaking out about it.
      - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
        > There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. I don't want to say that I don't believe these people exist (because I'm sure they do), but rather I don't think their presence is something you need to be overly concerned with because I think there are so shockingly few of them that it really isn't overly consequential. I think their existence is overhyped by people on the internet, because I've never met anyone in my life who has brought this up in the real world. Just handle things like that on a case-by-case basis. If all the people you interact with don't care... then you probably don't need to worry about it. But if there's someone who says "Hey, I don't like it when you say that", then perhaps take their opinion under consideration and determine what you want to do about it. The notion that you need to constantly be on guard about everything you say is completely absurd, unless you're a raging asshole whose comments regularly spark resentment in your conversational counterparts.
  - jcranmer 8y ago
    I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never been bullied, or that any bullying you received was strictly as part of a process of initiation into the club of bullies (i.e., hazing). It turns out that people who have only been on the receiving end of bullying do not, in fact, like being bullied.
    - stirfrykitty 8y ago
      I have been bullied, but ended it quickly, because that's how I roll. I can take massive amounts of verbal assault (former Marine) and physical difficulties, but I do draw the line at actual bullying for the sake of bullying. I don't equate calling someone a "fucking moron" or similar, bullying. YMMV. Being former military has given me some pretty thick skin.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        You've entirely missed his point. You were "bullied" but "ended it quickly", meaning that there was no meaningful power differential between you and your "bully". Many (most?) bullied people don't have that luxury, and, to extend the analysis all the way back to Linus, none of Linus's victims did. You're not doing an especially good job of defending Linus on this thread. I don't think he'd find your arguments especially useful as a tool for persuading people that his previous behavior was acceptable. Your comparison between him and Theo de Raadt, by the way, was especially cringe-y.
        tarsolya 8y ago
        While I agree with your point that most bullied people are rendered helpless because of a huge power differential, how can this be extended to a community based entirely on free association? Worst case, you stand up and leave. Compared to the military, where you are "kept" using a state's monopoly of deadly force, hence any bullyig situation is way much harder to resolve because you're unable to leave. Is everyone entitled to partake in communities like the kernel org if they so choose, even against it's founder's wishes? (Edited spelling)
  - stonogo 8y ago
    > I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen.
    - phissk 8y ago
      How about the snowflakes gtfo the kitchen.
  - stfwn 8y ago
    Just something to think about: many people simply avoid people who have a default mad, cynical or otherwise negative attitude, but they wouldn’t say it to their face. The badass might say ‘Good riddance!’ (or “Can’t handle the heat? ...”), but they will miss many great opportunities.
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    How are you arguing in favour of being able to publically insult someone on a mailing list, but also saying “offence is taken not given?” If you think offence is only taken, you would reject the idea that your words are polite or offensive. Instead you accept that some choice of words is offensive, argue that it’s right to be offensive in some situations, then try to disclaim that by saying “you shouldn’t be offended, I wouldn’t be because i have a tough skin”. If offence is only taken, not given, you wouldn’t need a tough skin because there wouldn’t be anything to bounce off it.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  The cure is worse than the disease.
- john-radio 8y ago
  Part of the issue is that a Linux mailing list isn't just some private discussion group anymore. If Linux spits fire, it's going on reddit/r/linusrants, and being berated on potentially the front page of reddit (even if the criticism is accurate and/or deserved) definitely introduces a much higher reputation risk for the criticized person.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
preommr 8y ago
The internet is a big place with lots of views and you'll find whatever it is you're looking for. On the flip side, there are also people that are looking to be outraged about "political correctness" and inserting their own biases into a situation that doesn't require it.
DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
> I never thought Linus was in bad form. His project, his rules. I think this is a problematic way to view things. Linus was usually right on the technical aspects, but he often made personal insults that were really just irrelevant. There's no need to attack people personally to get your point across. Honestly, his attitude in many of those famous comments strikes me as immature — he presents himself as someone who would rather spend time berating a person who tried to make a contribution and didn't do a good job than simply explaining why their contribution isn't good enough. Sure, "his project, his rules", but that doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick to people without any repercussions. Just as he is entitled to speak his mind, so too are the people who felt that his comments were out of line.
- coolso 8y ago
  > problematic There’s that word. I find its prevalent use in modern times to be problematic.
  - munchbunny 8y ago
    What would you suggest to convey the same meaning of "making something/someone unnecessarily painful to deal with"?
    - coolso 8y ago
      There’s got to be another word that doesn’t make the user come across like someone who seems deeply proud and smug about the fact that they perceive themselves to be on the moral high ground about a particular issue, while simultaneously “tsk tsk”ing and shaming the person for something that, 9/10 times isn’t as dramatically as big a deal as the person using that word implies. In some instances sure it’s fitting, but here? Give me a break!
      - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
        Uh well I was really just using it to mean "I don't like this take, and I think that we will have significant problems if too many people adopt the same point of view." Like just that that kind of point of view can cause problems in a community, because giving someone like Linus a free ride to say whatever he wants "because it's his house" can lead to a large portion of people feeling alienated or otherwise unfairly put-upon. I was unaware that the word "problematic" had so much extra connotation for some people. I'll seek to find an alternative way to phrase similar sentiments in the future. My immediate alternate choice would be "troublesome", but then that sounds patronizing (because kids are often seen as "troublesome"). Do you have some suggestions, maybe? (I know that sometimes when I write things like this people think I'm being sarcastic or antagonizing. I want you to know that this is not the case: I'm sincerely interested in finding another way to phrase these thoughts that will be less likely to cause these kinds of reactions in the future. I want to be understood clearly, but I don't want to mischaracterize my own opinions by using words that people may interpret with some nuance different than what I'm used to.)
Delmania 8y ago
A young female who's been using linux decides she wants contribute back. She's interested in software development, and knows a few things. So she picks a simple issue, codes up a solution and submits a PR. She's made rookie mistakes, nothing new. She's gets called a stupid bitch and told girls can't code, and that she should go back to her dolls, or back into the kitchen. She decides to drop her idea of becoming an engineer. While I have no specific case to point to, similar situations have occurred many times in many tech circles. A strong leader does not need to tear people down, insult them, or call them names. You can correct someone without insulting them.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  > She's gets called a stupid bitch and told girls can't code, and that she should go back to her dolls, or back into the kitchen. She decides to drop her idea of becoming an engineer. This is a complete strawman. Linus has never said anything like this and neither has any other open source leader to the best of my knowledge. Not even close.
  - genera1 8y ago
    This specific scenario didn't happen. But still, Linus has been downright abusive towards contributors in the past. It might have influenced some peoples decision to stop or to never start contributing to Linux.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      He's "abusive" toward technical incompetence. We don't want incompetent contributions to Linux.
      - genera1 8y ago
        He was abusive toward people, who made mistakes. There are ways of providing feedback, that don't include belittling people, questioning their mental health or straight up name-calling.
mfoy_ 8y ago
Cut out the first two paragraphs of your comment, they are irrelevant and misguided. Although there are issues with online mobs and the kangaroo court that social media has become, that has nothing to do with this. Also, complaining about SJWs has become a dog whistle for bigots-- it's not even a useful term, anyways. Regarding the third, some of Linus's rants were out and out vitriol. Like Linus, I don't hesitate to call BS when I smell BS (as is, perhaps, obvious), but I usually manage to do it in a civil manner.
_bxg1 8y ago
The growing pains come from the fact that the internet used to be a niche place, and now it's an extremely public place. When you personally know everyone who sees what you post, they have more context and understanding of both you as a person and the things you're saying, and that allows for nuance. For better or worse, most online channels are no longer small enough for that to apply. We can mourn the loss of an understanding environment in which to speak impulsively, but there's a segment of people who react to this change by embracing their offensiveness and raging against the "SJWs", which is equally bad. The reality is that one's online words impact a massively larger segment of people than they used to, and typically without context. This has bred constant reactionism and irritation in our society, which is a bad thing. I think the solution is to scale your "carefulness" to the scope of your media channel. Treat Twitter posts like you're speaking on live TV in front of millions. Because you effectively are. HackerNews tends to be a little more homogenous so you can get away with a little more. Private group chats with friends are all the way on the other end of the spectrum and allow you to say whatever you want. Simply don't expect the entire internet to be empathetic and give you the benefit of the doubt. Nuance doesn't scale that far. All that said, I think Linus' words were referring to his fame and the scale of the Linux project, not the internet in general. His project has gone from a small, tight-knit group to one of the largest software projects in the world. So yeah, some adjustment in decorum is necessary.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  Part of the problem, too, is that when you initially join something like Twitter, the only people seeing your posts may be a dozen friends, and then the size of that channel scales up, sometimes exponentially. It can be hard to track that and adjust your expectations accordingly. Historical posts can also be a problem because of this. If you're going to make in-jokes that would be offensive to the public, it could be a good idea to set up one of those services that deletes tweets older than a particular time span (months, years, whatever).
agentultra 8y ago
I despise the anti-SJW stance. I think it's about time loud-mouth, offensive people think twice before speaking. You used to have the power to offend whomever you wanted and now you don't. We haven't lost anything as a society and have gained so much more: the people who used to bear the brunt of such bullish behavior can finally have a voice in addition to yours. That's a good thing. You're imagining shadows on the wall coming to get you if you think that there are people literally waiting for you to say something to take your job away. Meanwhile the people who are picked on do have people doxxing them, emailing them grotesque photos and death threats, showing up at their houses, etc. I would bet a good sum of money that you've never had to deal with any of that. Maybe you should check yourself. Learn some non-violent communication. Empathize with other people. If we're all kind to one another what is it we need to be afraid of exactly?
- drenvuk 8y ago
  Non-violent communication is verbose, inefficient, and annoying to both read and write. If I deserved to be told to fuck off then someone should tell me to fuck off in the simplest and most direct way available. Maybe you should become more offensive, have you ever considered that?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Keep that straw-man away from the fire lest he burn. You are intentionally misinterpreting the GP's comment or at least seem to be from my interpretation. Nobody is annoyed that they can't sprinkle legitimate criticism with personal attacks. That was never considered normal or ok though it may have been tolerated in some contexts. People are annoyed that any direct criticism can be construed as a personal attack.
  - manicdee 8y ago
    GGP’s comment is that he can’t keep doing the things he used to do like calling foolish behaviour “retarded”, slapping the female members of the seam on the butt in place of the high-five his male colleagues get, or asking female colleagues out on dates. The people most upset about being called out by “SJWs” are the ones whose behaviour is most problematic and exclusionary.
jasonlotito 8y ago
> I have a feeling the majority of people would disagree with me anymore, but then again, my mindset and attitude were largely set by the military long ago, so I like strong leaders who don't brook BS. So how do you reconcile this opinion with the fact that Linus thinks this new approach makes him a better leader? Indeed > "So I'll still call out people (and particularly companies) for doing dumb things, but now I have to do it knowing that it's news, and me giving some company the finger will be remembered for a decade afterwards. Whether deserved or not, it might not be worth it." "it might not be worth it" is pretty damning. That approach you admire doesn't necessarily have the effects you want it to.
minikites 8y ago
An illuminating exercise: in any sentence where "political correctness" appears, replace it with "treating people with dignity" and re-read the sentence.
skywhopper 8y ago
I think you are overstating the situation dramatically. The fact that you use words like "political correctness" and "SJW" tells me a lot about where you've gotten your ideas from. (Also the cute bit about "tolerance" is getting outdated, but it doesn't even have anything to do with this situation. No one is asking Linus for "tolerance".) But maybe take a step back from all of that, and try to look at things in a different way. You say "his project, his rules." But that's not the same as not being in "bad form". Plenty of "nice guys" are also abusive to their subordinates. Linus was verbally abusive to contributors, and it happened over and over again. Sure, he has to put up with a lot and has a ton of pressure on him. But profanity laced rants are not the only way to "trounce the idiots". Lots of people could deal with Linus's behavior. But it also drove a lot more people away. Talented, dedicated workers who could have contributed to Linux but stopped because of the culture around kernel development. Even if you personally think he's a nice guy and was never "in bad form", the actual impact of his behavior on the kernel community was a negative thing. It was bad for Linux. So I'm glad he stepped away and got some help, and that he's come back a little more thoughtful about how his own behavior impacts others. It was necessary for the continued success of Linux. Ultimately that's what this is about. It's possible to say the same thing and send the same message in ways that are hurtful to other people and in ways that aren't. Sometimes in anger or impatience or fear we lash out in a hurtful way. But part of growing up and being a good leader is finding better ways to express ourselves to avoid being hurtful if we can help it. Taking time to be thoughtful and constructive in your communication is part of being a good leader. Insults and profanity do not add clarity--they are a needless distraction. It's not "political correctness" to take a moment and not give into your first instinct to lash out and insult others. It's not an "SJW mindset" to be clear and direct and avoid being needlessly hurtful.
0815test 8y ago
> I for one despise the political correctness that has occurred/is occurring in the current online communities. ... I'm sorry that you feel offended! But clearly Linus thought that his behavior towards other project participants had some scope for improvement, and that's his prerogative. There can be plenty of value in being diplomatic, especially when people might misunderstand your attitude otherwise - and politeness can be a part of that, as well.

staticassertion 8y ago

Yeah, crazy that people want to work on a project without being berated publicly and called incompetent on a mailing list. Those darn SJWs!!

stirfrykitty 8y ago
If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen. If a developer submits patches or bits of code that haven't been tested and/or says dumb things that developers of that caliber shouldn't, I don't see any reason not to call them out publicly. Open source projects, open source comments. I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, even though I know offense is taken and not given. It seems like everyone is just so defensive anymore and for why? I'm not bothered by any of it.
- staticassertion 8y ago
  "You're a fucking moron" - Linus Torvalds
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  Would you feel the same about getting insulted by random people for ambiguous design choices on an open source product for which you are the sole maintainer and have no accountability to anyone for?
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  > I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone I don't understand this. Essentially, your comment comes down to "I don't care how other people feel. I want to say what makes me happy, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it." And that's fine, I guess, if that's how you want to live your life. But offense is both taken and given — it's a two-way street. If you say something and someone says "Hey, that upset me", then you now have a choice of whether to say similar things in the future. If you choose to say those things that you have been told are offensive to this person, then you get to deal with the repercussions of that choice. After all: "If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen."
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    The window of what's considered offensive has widened to the point that nearly everything is offensive, up to and including staying silent on an issue. There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. What people want is for the grievance hunters to go away and/or toughen up.
    - delecti 8y ago
      Or possibly, a lot of people have always been kinda shit to each other, and it's only recently that people have felt confident in speaking out about it.
    - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
      > There are real people in the real world that will get offended if you say "hey guys" after all. I don't want to say that I don't believe these people exist (because I'm sure they do), but rather I don't think their presence is something you need to be overly concerned with because I think there are so shockingly few of them that it really isn't overly consequential. I think their existence is overhyped by people on the internet, because I've never met anyone in my life who has brought this up in the real world. Just handle things like that on a case-by-case basis. If all the people you interact with don't care... then you probably don't need to worry about it. But if there's someone who says "Hey, I don't like it when you say that", then perhaps take their opinion under consideration and determine what you want to do about it. The notion that you need to constantly be on guard about everything you say is completely absurd, unless you're a raging asshole whose comments regularly spark resentment in your conversational counterparts.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never been bullied, or that any bullying you received was strictly as part of a process of initiation into the club of bullies (i.e., hazing). It turns out that people who have only been on the receiving end of bullying do not, in fact, like being bullied.
  - stirfrykitty 8y ago
    I have been bullied, but ended it quickly, because that's how I roll. I can take massive amounts of verbal assault (former Marine) and physical difficulties, but I do draw the line at actual bullying for the sake of bullying. I don't equate calling someone a "fucking moron" or similar, bullying. YMMV. Being former military has given me some pretty thick skin.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      You've entirely missed his point. You were "bullied" but "ended it quickly", meaning that there was no meaningful power differential between you and your "bully". Many (most?) bullied people don't have that luxury, and, to extend the analysis all the way back to Linus, none of Linus's victims did. You're not doing an especially good job of defending Linus on this thread. I don't think he'd find your arguments especially useful as a tool for persuading people that his previous behavior was acceptable. Your comparison between him and Theo de Raadt, by the way, was especially cringe-y.
      - tarsolya 8y ago
        While I agree with your point that most bullied people are rendered helpless because of a huge power differential, how can this be extended to a community based entirely on free association? Worst case, you stand up and leave. Compared to the military, where you are "kept" using a state's monopoly of deadly force, hence any bullyig situation is way much harder to resolve because you're unable to leave. Is everyone entitled to partake in communities like the kernel org if they so choose, even against it's founder's wishes? (Edited spelling)
- stonogo 8y ago
  > I don't want to live or work in a world where I have to constantly guard my tongue for fear of "offending" someone, If you cannot handle the heat, leave the kitchen.
  - phissk 8y ago
    How about the snowflakes gtfo the kitchen.
- stfwn 8y ago
  Just something to think about: many people simply avoid people who have a default mad, cynical or otherwise negative attitude, but they wouldn’t say it to their face. The badass might say ‘Good riddance!’ (or “Can’t handle the heat? ...”), but they will miss many great opportunities.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  How are you arguing in favour of being able to publically insult someone on a mailing list, but also saying “offence is taken not given?” If you think offence is only taken, you would reject the idea that your words are polite or offensive. Instead you accept that some choice of words is offensive, argue that it’s right to be offensive in some situations, then try to disclaim that by saying “you shouldn’t be offended, I wouldn’t be because i have a tough skin”. If offence is only taken, not given, you wouldn’t need a tough skin because there wouldn’t be anything to bounce off it.
gridlockd 8y ago
The cure is worse than the disease.
john-radio 8y ago
Part of the issue is that a Linux mailing list isn't just some private discussion group anymore. If Linux spits fire, it's going on reddit/r/linusrants, and being berated on potentially the front page of reddit (even if the criticism is accurate and/or deserved) definitely introduces a much higher reputation risk for the criticized person.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

preommr 8y ago

The internet is a big place with lots of views and you'll find whatever it is you're looking for. On the flip side, there are also people that are looking to be outraged about "political correctness" and inserting their own biases into a situation that doesn't require it.

DonaldPShimoda 8y ago

> I never thought Linus was in bad form. His project, his rules. I think this is a problematic way to view things. Linus was usually right on the technical aspects, but he often made personal insults that were really just irrelevant. There's no need to attack people personally to get your point across. Honestly, his attitude in many of those famous comments strikes me as immature — he presents himself as someone who would rather spend time berating a person who tried to make a contribution and didn't do a good job than simply explaining why their contribution isn't good enough. Sure, "his project, his rules", but that doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick to people without any repercussions. Just as he is entitled to speak his mind, so too are the people who felt that his comments were out of line.

coolso 8y ago
> problematic There’s that word. I find its prevalent use in modern times to be problematic.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  What would you suggest to convey the same meaning of "making something/someone unnecessarily painful to deal with"?
  - coolso 8y ago
    There’s got to be another word that doesn’t make the user come across like someone who seems deeply proud and smug about the fact that they perceive themselves to be on the moral high ground about a particular issue, while simultaneously “tsk tsk”ing and shaming the person for something that, 9/10 times isn’t as dramatically as big a deal as the person using that word implies. In some instances sure it’s fitting, but here? Give me a break!
    - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
      Uh well I was really just using it to mean "I don't like this take, and I think that we will have significant problems if too many people adopt the same point of view." Like just that that kind of point of view can cause problems in a community, because giving someone like Linus a free ride to say whatever he wants "because it's his house" can lead to a large portion of people feeling alienated or otherwise unfairly put-upon. I was unaware that the word "problematic" had so much extra connotation for some people. I'll seek to find an alternative way to phrase similar sentiments in the future. My immediate alternate choice would be "troublesome", but then that sounds patronizing (because kids are often seen as "troublesome"). Do you have some suggestions, maybe? (I know that sometimes when I write things like this people think I'm being sarcastic or antagonizing. I want you to know that this is not the case: I'm sincerely interested in finding another way to phrase these thoughts that will be less likely to cause these kinds of reactions in the future. I want to be understood clearly, but I don't want to mischaracterize my own opinions by using words that people may interpret with some nuance different than what I'm used to.)

Delmania 8y ago

A young female who's been using linux decides she wants contribute back. She's interested in software development, and knows a few things. So she picks a simple issue, codes up a solution and submits a PR. She's made rookie mistakes, nothing new. She's gets called a stupid bitch and told girls can't code, and that she should go back to her dolls, or back into the kitchen. She decides to drop her idea of becoming an engineer. While I have no specific case to point to, similar situations have occurred many times in many tech circles. A strong leader does not need to tear people down, insult them, or call them names. You can correct someone without insulting them.

malvosenior 8y ago
> She's gets called a stupid bitch and told girls can't code, and that she should go back to her dolls, or back into the kitchen. She decides to drop her idea of becoming an engineer. This is a complete strawman. Linus has never said anything like this and neither has any other open source leader to the best of my knowledge. Not even close.
- genera1 8y ago
  This specific scenario didn't happen. But still, Linus has been downright abusive towards contributors in the past. It might have influenced some peoples decision to stop or to never start contributing to Linux.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    He's "abusive" toward technical incompetence. We don't want incompetent contributions to Linux.
    - genera1 8y ago
      He was abusive toward people, who made mistakes. There are ways of providing feedback, that don't include belittling people, questioning their mental health or straight up name-calling.

mfoy_ 8y ago

Cut out the first two paragraphs of your comment, they are irrelevant and misguided. Although there are issues with online mobs and the kangaroo court that social media has become, that has nothing to do with this. Also, complaining about SJWs has become a dog whistle for bigots-- it's not even a useful term, anyways. Regarding the third, some of Linus's rants were out and out vitriol. Like Linus, I don't hesitate to call BS when I smell BS (as is, perhaps, obvious), but I usually manage to do it in a civil manner.

_bxg1 8y ago

The growing pains come from the fact that the internet used to be a niche place, and now it's an extremely public place. When you personally know everyone who sees what you post, they have more context and understanding of both you as a person and the things you're saying, and that allows for nuance. For better or worse, most online channels are no longer small enough for that to apply. We can mourn the loss of an understanding environment in which to speak impulsively, but there's a segment of people who react to this change by embracing their offensiveness and raging against the "SJWs", which is equally bad. The reality is that one's online words impact a massively larger segment of people than they used to, and typically without context. This has bred constant reactionism and irritation in our society, which is a bad thing. I think the solution is to scale your "carefulness" to the scope of your media channel. Treat Twitter posts like you're speaking on live TV in front of millions. Because you effectively are. HackerNews tends to be a little more homogenous so you can get away with a little more. Private group chats with friends are all the way on the other end of the spectrum and allow you to say whatever you want. Simply don't expect the entire internet to be empathetic and give you the benefit of the doubt. Nuance doesn't scale that far. All that said, I think Linus' words were referring to his fame and the scale of the Linux project, not the internet in general. His project has gone from a small, tight-knit group to one of the largest software projects in the world. So yeah, some adjustment in decorum is necessary.

_bxg1 8y ago
Part of the problem, too, is that when you initially join something like Twitter, the only people seeing your posts may be a dozen friends, and then the size of that channel scales up, sometimes exponentially. It can be hard to track that and adjust your expectations accordingly. Historical posts can also be a problem because of this. If you're going to make in-jokes that would be offensive to the public, it could be a good idea to set up one of those services that deletes tweets older than a particular time span (months, years, whatever).

agentultra 8y ago

I despise the anti-SJW stance. I think it's about time loud-mouth, offensive people think twice before speaking. You used to have the power to offend whomever you wanted and now you don't. We haven't lost anything as a society and have gained so much more: the people who used to bear the brunt of such bullish behavior can finally have a voice in addition to yours. That's a good thing. You're imagining shadows on the wall coming to get you if you think that there are people literally waiting for you to say something to take your job away. Meanwhile the people who are picked on do have people doxxing them, emailing them grotesque photos and death threats, showing up at their houses, etc. I would bet a good sum of money that you've never had to deal with any of that. Maybe you should check yourself. Learn some non-violent communication. Empathize with other people. If we're all kind to one another what is it we need to be afraid of exactly?

drenvuk 8y ago
Non-violent communication is verbose, inefficient, and annoying to both read and write. If I deserved to be told to fuck off then someone should tell me to fuck off in the simplest and most direct way available. Maybe you should become more offensive, have you ever considered that?
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Keep that straw-man away from the fire lest he burn. You are intentionally misinterpreting the GP's comment or at least seem to be from my interpretation. Nobody is annoyed that they can't sprinkle legitimate criticism with personal attacks. That was never considered normal or ok though it may have been tolerated in some contexts. People are annoyed that any direct criticism can be construed as a personal attack.
- manicdee 8y ago
  GGP’s comment is that he can’t keep doing the things he used to do like calling foolish behaviour “retarded”, slapping the female members of the seam on the butt in place of the high-five his male colleagues get, or asking female colleagues out on dates. The people most upset about being called out by “SJWs” are the ones whose behaviour is most problematic and exclusionary.

jasonlotito 8y ago

> I have a feeling the majority of people would disagree with me anymore, but then again, my mindset and attitude were largely set by the military long ago, so I like strong leaders who don't brook BS. So how do you reconcile this opinion with the fact that Linus thinks this new approach makes him a better leader? Indeed > "So I'll still call out people (and particularly companies) for doing dumb things, but now I have to do it knowing that it's news, and me giving some company the finger will be remembered for a decade afterwards. Whether deserved or not, it might not be worth it." "it might not be worth it" is pretty damning. That approach you admire doesn't necessarily have the effects you want it to.

minikites 8y ago

An illuminating exercise: in any sentence where "political correctness" appears, replace it with "treating people with dignity" and re-read the sentence.

skywhopper 8y ago

I think you are overstating the situation dramatically. The fact that you use words like "political correctness" and "SJW" tells me a lot about where you've gotten your ideas from. (Also the cute bit about "tolerance" is getting outdated, but it doesn't even have anything to do with this situation. No one is asking Linus for "tolerance".) But maybe take a step back from all of that, and try to look at things in a different way. You say "his project, his rules." But that's not the same as not being in "bad form". Plenty of "nice guys" are also abusive to their subordinates. Linus was verbally abusive to contributors, and it happened over and over again. Sure, he has to put up with a lot and has a ton of pressure on him. But profanity laced rants are not the only way to "trounce the idiots". Lots of people could deal with Linus's behavior. But it also drove a lot more people away. Talented, dedicated workers who could have contributed to Linux but stopped because of the culture around kernel development. Even if you personally think he's a nice guy and was never "in bad form", the actual impact of his behavior on the kernel community was a negative thing. It was bad for Linux. So I'm glad he stepped away and got some help, and that he's come back a little more thoughtful about how his own behavior impacts others. It was necessary for the continued success of Linux. Ultimately that's what this is about. It's possible to say the same thing and send the same message in ways that are hurtful to other people and in ways that aren't. Sometimes in anger or impatience or fear we lash out in a hurtful way. But part of growing up and being a good leader is finding better ways to express ourselves to avoid being hurtful if we can help it. Taking time to be thoughtful and constructive in your communication is part of being a good leader. Insults and profanity do not add clarity--they are a needless distraction. It's not "political correctness" to take a moment and not give into your first instinct to lash out and insult others. It's not an "SJW mindset" to be clear and direct and avoid being needlessly hurtful.

0815test 8y ago

> I for one despise the political correctness that has occurred/is occurring in the current online communities. ... I'm sorry that you feel offended! But clearly Linus thought that his behavior towards other project participants had some scope for improvement, and that's his prerogative. There can be plenty of value in being diplomatic, especially when people might misunderstand your attitude otherwise - and politeness can be a part of that, as well.