3 ms·

I haven't read the paper yet, but this idea shouldn't be terribly surprising. Augustine of Hippo did a pretty thorough analysis at least of the Greco-Roman gods

I haven't read the paper yet, but this idea shouldn't be terribly surprising. Augustine of Hippo did a pretty thorough analysis at least of the Greco-Roman gods in the early 400s and wrote about how pagan gods generally aren't moralizing, and how the punishments or favors they give often have little to do with how moral a particular person is and the behavior of the Greco-Roman gods is also not an example worth following. One of the arguments that he and others made in favor of Christianity is that in our faith, the religious and moral come together, and that this was a mostly novel concept at the time.

leftyted 8y ago
Greco-Roman gods absolutely punished immoral behavior. It's just that "what is moral" has changed a lot over time. For example, the classical Greek period was a time when pederasty and war were considered perfectly moral. It's often pointed out that pre-Christian morality seems to differ considerably from post-Christian morality. Also, Ancient Greece/Rome definitely count as "complex societites".
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I think the OP's point is crudely valid. Greek gods basically wanted you to pray and appease them, more or less. Jesus and the Buddha wanted you to be a fundamentally better person, moreover, they were themselves enshrined in a metaphysical spirituality. I always found it odd that Greek philosophers spoke of 'spirit' and 'soul' but that seemed for them to be a completely separate domain from Zeus et. al. Here's chapter 1 of 'Plato's Republic' [1] Talk of 'soul' and 'appeasing the just/unjust god's' seem to be a different kind of subject material, whereas in most modern religions they are inherently related. I often wonder if there's a populist bent to that: a 'soul' is an abstract, intellectual concept, removed from our daily lives. It'd be hard to get the plebes even to pay attention to such haughty ideas. But give them some Gods and Goddesses warring at each other's throats, tales of jealousy, death, intrigue ... now there's something they can buy into. [1] http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.2.i.html http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.2.i.html
  - leftyted 8y ago
    > I think the OP's point is crudely valid. Greek gods basically wanted you to pray and appease them, more or less. Jesus and the Buddha wanted you to be a fundamentally better person, moreover, they were themselves enshrined in a metaphysical spirituality. "Being a better person" means different things in different moral frameworks. Plato fought in wars. Jesus didn't. We don't live under a moral framework where "dying in battle is the ultimate virtue, regardless of which side you were on". The Greeks did, though. It's unclear to me how anyone familiar with Greek mythology could make the claim that the Greek gods were unconcerned with morality. The story of Sisyphus is a moral lesson. Greek myths are full of that stuff: characters are punished for some sin or rewarded for some virtue.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      I don't think anyone is suggesting that Greek mythology is absent any kind of moral impetus. But the Greek Gods seem fairly petty, jealous, vain etc.. Their description in the Ilyad puts them as 'superhumans' more than anything, there is definitely no overarching metaphysical appeal to either morality, or towards stoic search for meaning of life etc.. It's like they're just the superhuman overlords humans have to deal with.
      - ABCLAW 8y ago
        Homer wasn't the only person writing in the classical period. His contemporary, Hesiod, depicted gods as immortal arbiters of justice in Works and Days. The Ilyad clearly has struck some narrative gold, but was in no way the only manner in which the pantheon was portrayed.

leftyted 8y ago

Greco-Roman gods absolutely punished immoral behavior. It's just that "what is moral" has changed a lot over time. For example, the classical Greek period was a time when pederasty and war were considered perfectly moral. It's often pointed out that pre-Christian morality seems to differ considerably from post-Christian morality. Also, Ancient Greece/Rome definitely count as "complex societites".

sonnyblarney 8y ago
I think the OP's point is crudely valid. Greek gods basically wanted you to pray and appease them, more or less. Jesus and the Buddha wanted you to be a fundamentally better person, moreover, they were themselves enshrined in a metaphysical spirituality. I always found it odd that Greek philosophers spoke of 'spirit' and 'soul' but that seemed for them to be a completely separate domain from Zeus et. al. Here's chapter 1 of 'Plato's Republic' [1] Talk of 'soul' and 'appeasing the just/unjust god's' seem to be a different kind of subject material, whereas in most modern religions they are inherently related. I often wonder if there's a populist bent to that: a 'soul' is an abstract, intellectual concept, removed from our daily lives. It'd be hard to get the plebes even to pay attention to such haughty ideas. But give them some Gods and Goddesses warring at each other's throats, tales of jealousy, death, intrigue ... now there's something they can buy into. [1] http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.2.i.html http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.2.i.html
- leftyted 8y ago
  > I think the OP's point is crudely valid. Greek gods basically wanted you to pray and appease them, more or less. Jesus and the Buddha wanted you to be a fundamentally better person, moreover, they were themselves enshrined in a metaphysical spirituality. "Being a better person" means different things in different moral frameworks. Plato fought in wars. Jesus didn't. We don't live under a moral framework where "dying in battle is the ultimate virtue, regardless of which side you were on". The Greeks did, though. It's unclear to me how anyone familiar with Greek mythology could make the claim that the Greek gods were unconcerned with morality. The story of Sisyphus is a moral lesson. Greek myths are full of that stuff: characters are punished for some sin or rewarded for some virtue.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that Greek mythology is absent any kind of moral impetus. But the Greek Gods seem fairly petty, jealous, vain etc.. Their description in the Ilyad puts them as 'superhumans' more than anything, there is definitely no overarching metaphysical appeal to either morality, or towards stoic search for meaning of life etc.. It's like they're just the superhuman overlords humans have to deal with.
    - ABCLAW 8y ago
      Homer wasn't the only person writing in the classical period. His contemporary, Hesiod, depicted gods as immortal arbiters of justice in Works and Days. The Ilyad clearly has struck some narrative gold, but was in no way the only manner in which the pantheon was portrayed.