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It's almost comic villainy - like, everything they say, do, propose, etc. is always evil in some way. Can anyone on the inside give some insight into current m

It's almost comic villainy - like, everything they say, do, propose, etc. is always evil in some way. Can anyone on the inside give some insight into current morale? Is the constant deluge of negative press cutting through the indoctrination or nah?

rusk 8y ago
From what I've heard, they have nice cushions of dollar bills to block out any negative thoughts ..
themagician 8y ago
It’s the same as it’s always been, and the same at most of the big tech companies: Everyone believes they are changing the world for the better while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. Morale is high because paychecks are high. How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play.
- rifung 8y ago
  > It’s the same as it’s always been, and the same at most of the big tech companies: Everyone believes they are changing the world for the better while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. I'm curious what your experience is with this? I've worked at Google and AWS and I don't think I've met a single person who thought they were "changing the world". The closest it ever got to that was when I once remarked to my lead that I wish I felt like the work I do mattered to which he replied something along the lines of, "We play but a small part in the grand movement that is the progress of technology, but don't forget we do play a part." Pretty much everyone I know just does their job because they want to retire or support their families. This is also the same for almost every employee I've seen in other sized companies. > How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play. Some people may think this way but it's a choice to surround yourself with those kinds of people.
  - swagasaurus-rex 8y ago
    Yeah, it's all a drop in the bucket. Fifty years down the road, nobody will care about Facebook's transgressions of today. > How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play. You can look at an ape in the jungle as getting the most food. Is that the worth of that ape? To the apes, maybe so. To us, it's just an ape.
- throwaway284721 8y ago
  > while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. In your view, are there ways of "extracting value" that are not "some kind of exploitation". Is "changing the world for the better" incompatible with "extracting value" somehow?
morley 8y ago
I really dislike comments like these, and I find it dismaying that they've gained currency on HN recently. Almost every article about Facebook or Google has some variation of this comment. > It's almost comic villainy - like, everything they say, do, propose, etc. is always evil in some way. The problem I have with it is that you can replace the meaning of "they", and have this comment "work" for any number of biased echo chambers. Go ahead and replace "they" with Facebook, Google, Obama, Trump, Exxon-Mobil, scientists, billionaires, politicians, Internet trolls, the media, ad nauseam. If this sentence can work for any of these scenarios, verbatim, then what's the point of uttering it? To bring this back to the issue at hand: is there anything Zuckerberg could say that would make you not respond this way? And if you can't come up with anything, are you sure you aren't completely biased against Facebook such that nothing they can do will ameliorate you?
- lskopwol 8y ago
  So let’s not talk about anything at all then, since everything can surely be mad-libbed. It seems the one working on vague generalities is your statements, not his.
- themagician 8y ago
  To use the parlance of our time, a lot of people are becoming “woke” to just how morally bankrupt our society has become. And while these sorts of companies have always existed, what’s new is this layer of “saving the world” morality that allows people to feel good about it. It’s like being a henchman, only you’ve managed to convince yourself it’s honest work. And maybe now it actually is.
- ben509 8y ago
  I agree with your premise, not just from the ethical sense of wanting to treat others as human beings, but I think when I manage that I make a more compelling argument. That said, let me try to answer why you're seeing this pattern. Facebook has a business model that works for certain strategic choices, and doesn't work for others. A big one is they don't charge a subscription fee to users. That puts hard constraints on how they generate revenue. > is there anything Zuckerberg could say that would make you not respond this way? That's why it's nigh impossible that Zuckerberg will come along and announce, "we've ended our policy of treating users as the product." Personally, this was one of the reasons I've been happy to work at firms that sell specific products and services. It doesn't guarantee they'll behave well, but the fact that customers can take their money elsewhere does tend to keep them grounded in the long run. I think most social media, for that reason and others, has a bad business model. I'd like those businesses to fail to clear out space for alternatives to be built. (And they're not villains working there, so I'd also hope they all land on their feet and find new jobs.)
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
I'm sure morale is fine. They've hired for this type of culture.
oconnor663 8y ago
> It's almost comic villainy I think that feeling is the group narrative talking. It's a thing we (HN, reddit, etc) choose to do together, rather than a specific fact that's true or false. Former Facebook employee here: One thing that you don't appreciate from the outside, is that FB employees hear more FB criticism than you do. (This is just true of anyone working for any company.) And one of the side effects of hearing more, is that you hear a lot of very wrong, very poorly thought out stuff. So it does get easier to sit out from a group narrative like this, because the parts that are wrong or misleading jump out at you.
ravenstine 8y ago
The only think Zuckerberg is missing is a thick mustache he can twirl. People gave him a pass for his "dumb fucks" quote because he was a "kid" when he said it, but look where we are now with Facebook and the state of the internet in relation to it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
notacoward 8y ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just for myself, of course. Things have been done that I might not have agreed with. It does hurt when the "Facebook is evil" meme gets thrown in my face, especially from so-called friends. So yeah, morale takes a hit, but it's not clear how my leaving would make it any better. Don't you want for there to be some good people at Facebook? Or do you deny the possibility, as if people who were good at their last company magically become bad the moment they accept the offer? Believing in no good outcome except extinction is a working definition of hate, and I have no time for that. I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard.
- blueboo 8y ago
  Ah, the first--or maybe second--week of freshman ethics. Change from the inside, or from the outside... Take some responsibility. Are you evil for signing on? No, but let's not pretend they're welcoming you because you're going to shine a light on unethical practices. Are you evil for staying? That's a judgment call you have to make in your own heart-of-hearts, measuring what you've enabled and contributed, who you've enriched--against the moral influence you've exerted (not to mention the questionable influence you've empowered.) > I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard. There is a standard. I offer you a baseline: if you're solving technical problems and you're systematically failing to influence the non-technical ones, you shouldn't be there. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your failure is likely measurably less than systematic. But enough so? Bear in mind the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world, a better product, a better community...elsewhere.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    > the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world...elsewhere. And how many of the critics are doing that? How many are making a positive moral difference at their own companies, however good or bad those companies already are? I posit that moving forward at a "bad" company is more valuable than standing still at a "good" one. In my group at Red Hat, generally regarded as a "good" company, our project plans were influenced by demands from some pretty shady customers - big banks, government agencies, even a Russian propaganda agency. At Facebook, my work supports data scientists who are detecting and eliminating that same kind of propaganda. But I'm supposed to feel worse about myself now? You talk trash about freshman ethics, but that's exactly the kind you yourself are engaging in. I was in fact a philosophy major long ago (though more logic and metaphysics than ethics) so I should know. ;) It has been over thirty years since I found such simplistic arguments even slightly amusing.

rusk 8y ago

From what I've heard, they have nice cushions of dollar bills to block out any negative thoughts ..

themagician 8y ago

It’s the same as it’s always been, and the same at most of the big tech companies: Everyone believes they are changing the world for the better while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. Morale is high because paychecks are high. How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play.

rifung 8y ago
> It’s the same as it’s always been, and the same at most of the big tech companies: Everyone believes they are changing the world for the better while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. I'm curious what your experience is with this? I've worked at Google and AWS and I don't think I've met a single person who thought they were "changing the world". The closest it ever got to that was when I once remarked to my lead that I wish I felt like the work I do mattered to which he replied something along the lines of, "We play but a small part in the grand movement that is the progress of technology, but don't forget we do play a part." Pretty much everyone I know just does their job because they want to retire or support their families. This is also the same for almost every employee I've seen in other sized companies. > How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play. Some people may think this way but it's a choice to surround yourself with those kinds of people.
- swagasaurus-rex 8y ago
  Yeah, it's all a drop in the bucket. Fifty years down the road, nobody will care about Facebook's transgressions of today. > How much you get paid is the key indicator of how much you are worth as a human being. That’s the game we play. You can look at an ape in the jungle as getting the most food. Is that the worth of that ape? To the apes, maybe so. To us, it's just an ape.
throwaway284721 8y ago
> while extracting value through some kind of exploitation. In your view, are there ways of "extracting value" that are not "some kind of exploitation". Is "changing the world for the better" incompatible with "extracting value" somehow?

morley 8y ago

I really dislike comments like these, and I find it dismaying that they've gained currency on HN recently. Almost every article about Facebook or Google has some variation of this comment. > It's almost comic villainy - like, everything they say, do, propose, etc. is always evil in some way. The problem I have with it is that you can replace the meaning of "they", and have this comment "work" for any number of biased echo chambers. Go ahead and replace "they" with Facebook, Google, Obama, Trump, Exxon-Mobil, scientists, billionaires, politicians, Internet trolls, the media, ad nauseam. If this sentence can work for any of these scenarios, verbatim, then what's the point of uttering it? To bring this back to the issue at hand: is there anything Zuckerberg could say that would make you not respond this way? And if you can't come up with anything, are you sure you aren't completely biased against Facebook such that nothing they can do will ameliorate you?

lskopwol 8y ago
So let’s not talk about anything at all then, since everything can surely be mad-libbed. It seems the one working on vague generalities is your statements, not his.
themagician 8y ago
To use the parlance of our time, a lot of people are becoming “woke” to just how morally bankrupt our society has become. And while these sorts of companies have always existed, what’s new is this layer of “saving the world” morality that allows people to feel good about it. It’s like being a henchman, only you’ve managed to convince yourself it’s honest work. And maybe now it actually is.
ben509 8y ago
I agree with your premise, not just from the ethical sense of wanting to treat others as human beings, but I think when I manage that I make a more compelling argument. That said, let me try to answer why you're seeing this pattern. Facebook has a business model that works for certain strategic choices, and doesn't work for others. A big one is they don't charge a subscription fee to users. That puts hard constraints on how they generate revenue. > is there anything Zuckerberg could say that would make you not respond this way? That's why it's nigh impossible that Zuckerberg will come along and announce, "we've ended our policy of treating users as the product." Personally, this was one of the reasons I've been happy to work at firms that sell specific products and services. It doesn't guarantee they'll behave well, but the fact that customers can take their money elsewhere does tend to keep them grounded in the long run. I think most social media, for that reason and others, has a bad business model. I'd like those businesses to fail to clear out space for alternatives to be built. (And they're not villains working there, so I'd also hope they all land on their feet and find new jobs.)

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

I'm sure morale is fine. They've hired for this type of culture.

oconnor663 8y ago

> It's almost comic villainy I think that feeling is the group narrative talking. It's a thing we (HN, reddit, etc) choose to do together, rather than a specific fact that's true or false. Former Facebook employee here: One thing that you don't appreciate from the outside, is that FB employees hear more FB criticism than you do. (This is just true of anyone working for any company.) And one of the side effects of hearing more, is that you hear a lot of very wrong, very poorly thought out stuff. So it does get easier to sit out from a group narrative like this, because the parts that are wrong or misleading jump out at you.

ravenstine 8y ago

The only think Zuckerberg is missing is a thick mustache he can twirl. People gave him a pass for his "dumb fucks" quote because he was a "kid" when he said it, but look where we are now with Facebook and the state of the internet in relation to it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

notacoward 8y ago

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just for myself, of course. Things have been done that I might not have agreed with. It does hurt when the "Facebook is evil" meme gets thrown in my face, especially from so-called friends. So yeah, morale takes a hit, but it's not clear how my leaving would make it any better. Don't you want for there to be some good people at Facebook? Or do you deny the possibility, as if people who were good at their last company magically become bad the moment they accept the offer? Believing in no good outcome except extinction is a working definition of hate, and I have no time for that. I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard.

blueboo 8y ago
Ah, the first--or maybe second--week of freshman ethics. Change from the inside, or from the outside... Take some responsibility. Are you evil for signing on? No, but let's not pretend they're welcoming you because you're going to shine a light on unethical practices. Are you evil for staying? That's a judgment call you have to make in your own heart-of-hearts, measuring what you've enabled and contributed, who you've enriched--against the moral influence you've exerted (not to mention the questionable influence you've empowered.) > I and literally thousands of others are here, solving technical problems, trying to influence the non-technical ones, and if you think we shouldn't be than that's just counterproductive by any standard. There is a standard. I offer you a baseline: if you're solving technical problems and you're systematically failing to influence the non-technical ones, you shouldn't be there. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your failure is likely measurably less than systematic. But enough so? Bear in mind the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world, a better product, a better community...elsewhere.
- notacoward 8y ago
  > the alternative is not yelling at Facebook from the outside, it's building a better world...elsewhere. And how many of the critics are doing that? How many are making a positive moral difference at their own companies, however good or bad those companies already are? I posit that moving forward at a "bad" company is more valuable than standing still at a "good" one. In my group at Red Hat, generally regarded as a "good" company, our project plans were influenced by demands from some pretty shady customers - big banks, government agencies, even a Russian propaganda agency. At Facebook, my work supports data scientists who are detecting and eliminating that same kind of propaganda. But I'm supposed to feel worse about myself now? You talk trash about freshman ethics, but that's exactly the kind you yourself are engaging in. I was in fact a philosophy major long ago (though more logic and metaphysics than ethics) so I should know. ;) It has been over thirty years since I found such simplistic arguments even slightly amusing.