5 ms·

That and 2/3rds of websites are just Shopify templates, etc. I suppose this is the natural progression as a given thing becomes more accessible, that the thing

That and 2/3rds of websites are just Shopify templates, etc. I suppose this is the natural progression as a given thing becomes more accessible, that the things themselves lose personality and flair because literally anybody can do it now. It reminds of cars, actually, how back in the early days every car was unique because when you bought a "car" what you received was a chassis, engine, wheels, etc. and then you'd take that to a coach builder who'd finish the job to your liking. Then as time went on, things got standardized (for cars, it was manufacturers and models, for websites, it's companies like Shopify, Wordpress, Joomla, etc. and then slowly everything gets paired down into what is generally agreed upon as the "correct" set of features, and they all just look a bit the same. And then of course you occasionally have a teenager who fits a great stereo to a Mazda or something, but by and large, everything is pretty much standardized. I know it's more efficient, but it's terribly boring.

lazyjones 8y ago
> things themselves lose personality and flair because literally anybody can do it now. I'd argue that fewer people can do it now (relative to the Internet population) than previously, because free webspace is dead, the desktop is dead (the laptop close behind it), ftp is dead, DMCA, GDPR, hackers are scary, HTML is much more complex (e.g. responsive design). The web is a playing field for larger corporations now and most people and small entities have given up and just maintain a FB/IG presence.
- gsich 8y ago
  Desktop isn't dead, neither is (by extension) laptop.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    All the people getting online around the developing world overwhelmingly own only phones. Their phones are the only electronic device they have. Even in developed countries it is becoming extremely common now for people whose don't create much text content to only use a phone or tablet. Desktops and tablets are something they maybe only see at work.
    - Retric 8y ago
      In the early days aka pre 1990 very few people where online or had access to computers worldwide. In the 90’s access kept increasing but mostly in the developed world which is ~1/6 of global population. New PC sales makes it look like access is dropping, but the reality is people simply use older Computers on average. A 10 year old desktop in 1998 is relatively ancient, but in 2018 it’s not that far behind the curve. On top of that tablets and smartphones often replace secondary computers. If you have a powerful gaming desktop and a tablet then a laptop is less useful.
    - Pigo 8y ago
      But there is a lot of people at work right now, on their desktop and laptop.
    - rjf72 8y ago
      This is going to vary by area. In various locations I've lived, all in the developing world, phones are used for mindless social media and games, desktops are used for everything else. There are some cultural things that might make the numbers look misleading or just generally be very difficult to measure. For instance internet cafes tend to be ubiquitous in many parts of the world which provide easy and extremely comfortable access to high end computers which people in many cases use effectively as their own. With prices that start at some pennies per hour, it also often makes more economic sense in many cases. Another big issue is that 'computer malls' are also still a thing. Think something like Fry's, but 6 stories tall and full of nothing but independent shops. These places drive two confounding issues. The first is that they build [lots] of computers a la carte. PC sales figures only come from major distributors like Dell, HP, etc. So even though there are millions of PCs sold at these malls, it'd count as 0 by most metrics. And another factor is that people tend to repair/refurbish/upgrade their computers rather than buy new ones. These malls again facilitate such things at very affordable prices. I can count the number of tablets I've seen on one hand.
    - cknoxrun 8y ago
      An aside but surely this must be positive in terms of environmental impact. Imagine the millions (billions?) of desktops and laptops that have not been manufactured or powered because of the widespread availability of phones.
  - lazyjones 8y ago
    It has something like 40% of web traffic now, despite those with desktop PCs being more likely professionals in the field, so normal people simply don't really use a desktop/laptop anymore to browse the web.
    - cgriswald 8y ago
      I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I can't make sense of your post and it seems contrary to my experience. > It has something like 40% of web traffic now I'm not sure what your metric is here so I've assumed volume. 40% of web traffic now is an order of magnitude more traffic than all web traffic a decade ago. I'm not sure how something which has an increased volume and still has 40% of the total pie can be 'dead'. I might buy 'dying' if it was accompanied with more data. > ...despite those with desktop PCs being more likely professionals in the field... I'm not sure what you are saying. It seems like you're saying outside of tech, businesses don't use desktops. That does not jibe with my experience. I have seen an increase in POS systems using tablets, but those are primarily replacing cash registers, bespoke POS systems, etc. > ...so normal people simply don't really use a desktop/laptop anymore to browse the web. With the exception of the people I know who own a laptop but not a television, it seems that all normal people do with their laptops is browse the web.
- IWeldMelons 8y ago
  Actually, PC sales increases in 2018. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/13/17567760/pc-sales-growth-idc-gartner-july-2018 https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/13/17567760/pc-sales-growth-...
  - ghaff 8y ago
    The devices are still sold. However, they're increasingly just used as browsers. I was just saying to someone that it's something of an irony that Chromebooks seem to have settled into something primarily for the K-12 education market when they're really all the PC that most people need. I actually travel on business with one a lot of the time but will probably replace it because no one really makes the hardware I want.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      > they're increasingly just used as browsers So what? A browser is all you need to make a website.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        Historically, when people have talked about desktops and laptops they have generally been thinking in terms of a stateful device that ran applications locally. Increasingly they're just a convenient form-factor to run a browser. They're effectively functioning as a modern-day thin client. When people say the desktop/laptop is largely dead. That's what they mean. [ADDED: That, and that web access is increasingly through a phone.]
    - WillPostForFood 8y ago
      It's Larry Ellison's Network Computer idea finally realized, 20 years later. https://www.cnet.com/news/oracle-to-debut-500-network-computer-1/ https://www.cnet.com/news/oracle-to-debut-500-network-comput...
      - ghaff 8y ago
        Yep. The browser + web has effectively evolved into what all the deliberate attempts to create thin clients mostly failed at. (Just as app stores largely do what application virtualization was supposed to.)
- CalRobert 8y ago
  All those things are dead, and what's worse, replaced by devices whose primary focus is consumption rather than ceation
  - asark 8y ago
    If I could only have one consumer computing device to make a movie, or a drawing, or a anything involving photos, I'd pick one of those "consumption" devices over a desktop or laptop without hesitation. Even a phone, for anything involving the camera. The form factor and extra/better sensors make them great for all kinds of things. I'd also rather have an iPhone helping me out in the workshop than a laptop or desktop, for a bunch of reasons. I can use it as a measuring device, a level, a note-taking/shopping-list machine (hands free, even!), a youtube how-to player, an instruction manual finder, and so on, and it fits in my pocket and reasonable amounts of sawdust and liquid won't hurt it. That's creation. People spend most of their time on "real" computers consuming, too, by a huge margin. I still wouldn't say their (computers') primary focus is consumption. Anyway, the premise is kind of nonsense as consumption is a major part of many creative processes.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      This is all true. But the barrier to go from consuming to creating is a lot higher now. Making silly little programs in BASIC or Perl is a lot tougher on an iphone, and that's what sparked the interest for a lot of people (though maybe I'm wrong and it's getting easier?)
      - asark 8y ago
        For the specific case of creating software, then? I'd say the Swift Playground is (much) easier to get started with and also more compelling than hacking around with Perl on (at first) Win98 was.
- Pigo 8y ago
  This was my point, though you put it much more articulately. People used to make websites because they were enthusiastic about The Smashing Pumpkins, Fight Club, or their EverQuest guild. Now they make sites for a business. Business ruined eBay, and then it spread to the rest of the web. If you have a passion you want to building for, you have to accept a terms of service of a big platform and build with their tools. It might be easier, but it sure has been less fun to view.
- icebraining 8y ago
  > free webspace is dead Nope, it's better than ever. You have non-profit providers like https://neocities.org/ https://neocities.org/, regular shared hosting with free plans, and stuff like Github pages and Netlify for those with a bit more tech skills. Way better than the times when you had Geocities and such injecting ads into your site. > the desktop is dead (the laptop close behind it) No need for those to build a website. Any cheap Android phone can do it. > ftp is dead Nope, the previously mentioned shared hosting providers still offer it. > HTML is much more complex (e.g. responsive design) Old-school HTML pretty much works the same, and is actually quite fine on both desktop and mobile screens. -- Frankly, I don't think the problem is that making your own site has gotten any harder, it's that there was no FB/IG back then. Had there been FB pages from the start of the web, you'd probably would have never seen so many custom sites in the first place.
  - hedora 8y ago
    > Had there been FB pages from the start of the web, you'd probably would have never seen so many custom sites in the first place. I’m not sure about this. AOL, Prodigy and CompuServe all had vibrant online communities. However, what you could do was much more limited than the federated web, and they were silos. Without the competition of “I’ll host my own server, and search engines will index it”, I wonder if FB and it’s predecessors would have been able to figure out what to build.
    - FussyZeus 8y ago
      Well Facebook was built on the failures of MySpace which in turn was built on the failures of Friendster, and so on. People who wanted their own space were always making their own space, and the rest would go to whichever social network was the most relevant at the time.
      - mtberatwork 8y ago
        Facebook wasn't built on MySpace's failures, they were both operating at the same time. People moved to Facebook because it was more intimate and less commercialized while MySpace turned into a dodgy spam heap.
- Crinus 8y ago
  Half of those you call dead (desktop, ftp, simple html) are things i use all the time :-P. And i'm sure free webspace isn't dead as i used one about 3 years ago which was the first hit on google among many and i doubt all of them vanished so fast.

lazyjones 8y ago

> things themselves lose personality and flair because literally anybody can do it now. I'd argue that fewer people can do it now (relative to the Internet population) than previously, because free webspace is dead, the desktop is dead (the laptop close behind it), ftp is dead, DMCA, GDPR, hackers are scary, HTML is much more complex (e.g. responsive design). The web is a playing field for larger corporations now and most people and small entities have given up and just maintain a FB/IG presence.

gsich 8y ago
Desktop isn't dead, neither is (by extension) laptop.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  All the people getting online around the developing world overwhelmingly own only phones. Their phones are the only electronic device they have. Even in developed countries it is becoming extremely common now for people whose don't create much text content to only use a phone or tablet. Desktops and tablets are something they maybe only see at work.
  - Retric 8y ago
    In the early days aka pre 1990 very few people where online or had access to computers worldwide. In the 90’s access kept increasing but mostly in the developed world which is ~1/6 of global population. New PC sales makes it look like access is dropping, but the reality is people simply use older Computers on average. A 10 year old desktop in 1998 is relatively ancient, but in 2018 it’s not that far behind the curve. On top of that tablets and smartphones often replace secondary computers. If you have a powerful gaming desktop and a tablet then a laptop is less useful.
  - Pigo 8y ago
    But there is a lot of people at work right now, on their desktop and laptop.
  - rjf72 8y ago
    This is going to vary by area. In various locations I've lived, all in the developing world, phones are used for mindless social media and games, desktops are used for everything else. There are some cultural things that might make the numbers look misleading or just generally be very difficult to measure. For instance internet cafes tend to be ubiquitous in many parts of the world which provide easy and extremely comfortable access to high end computers which people in many cases use effectively as their own. With prices that start at some pennies per hour, it also often makes more economic sense in many cases. Another big issue is that 'computer malls' are also still a thing. Think something like Fry's, but 6 stories tall and full of nothing but independent shops. These places drive two confounding issues. The first is that they build [lots] of computers a la carte. PC sales figures only come from major distributors like Dell, HP, etc. So even though there are millions of PCs sold at these malls, it'd count as 0 by most metrics. And another factor is that people tend to repair/refurbish/upgrade their computers rather than buy new ones. These malls again facilitate such things at very affordable prices. I can count the number of tablets I've seen on one hand.
  - cknoxrun 8y ago
    An aside but surely this must be positive in terms of environmental impact. Imagine the millions (billions?) of desktops and laptops that have not been manufactured or powered because of the widespread availability of phones.
- lazyjones 8y ago
  It has something like 40% of web traffic now, despite those with desktop PCs being more likely professionals in the field, so normal people simply don't really use a desktop/laptop anymore to browse the web.
  - cgriswald 8y ago
    I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I can't make sense of your post and it seems contrary to my experience. > It has something like 40% of web traffic now I'm not sure what your metric is here so I've assumed volume. 40% of web traffic now is an order of magnitude more traffic than all web traffic a decade ago. I'm not sure how something which has an increased volume and still has 40% of the total pie can be 'dead'. I might buy 'dying' if it was accompanied with more data. > ...despite those with desktop PCs being more likely professionals in the field... I'm not sure what you are saying. It seems like you're saying outside of tech, businesses don't use desktops. That does not jibe with my experience. I have seen an increase in POS systems using tablets, but those are primarily replacing cash registers, bespoke POS systems, etc. > ...so normal people simply don't really use a desktop/laptop anymore to browse the web. With the exception of the people I know who own a laptop but not a television, it seems that all normal people do with their laptops is browse the web.
IWeldMelons 8y ago
Actually, PC sales increases in 2018. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/13/17567760/pc-sales-growth-idc-gartner-july-2018 https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/13/17567760/pc-sales-growth-...
- ghaff 8y ago
  The devices are still sold. However, they're increasingly just used as browsers. I was just saying to someone that it's something of an irony that Chromebooks seem to have settled into something primarily for the K-12 education market when they're really all the PC that most people need. I actually travel on business with one a lot of the time but will probably replace it because no one really makes the hardware I want.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    > they're increasingly just used as browsers So what? A browser is all you need to make a website.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Historically, when people have talked about desktops and laptops they have generally been thinking in terms of a stateful device that ran applications locally. Increasingly they're just a convenient form-factor to run a browser. They're effectively functioning as a modern-day thin client. When people say the desktop/laptop is largely dead. That's what they mean. [ADDED: That, and that web access is increasingly through a phone.]
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    It's Larry Ellison's Network Computer idea finally realized, 20 years later. https://www.cnet.com/news/oracle-to-debut-500-network-computer-1/ https://www.cnet.com/news/oracle-to-debut-500-network-comput...
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Yep. The browser + web has effectively evolved into what all the deliberate attempts to create thin clients mostly failed at. (Just as app stores largely do what application virtualization was supposed to.)
CalRobert 8y ago
All those things are dead, and what's worse, replaced by devices whose primary focus is consumption rather than ceation
- asark 8y ago
  If I could only have one consumer computing device to make a movie, or a drawing, or a anything involving photos, I'd pick one of those "consumption" devices over a desktop or laptop without hesitation. Even a phone, for anything involving the camera. The form factor and extra/better sensors make them great for all kinds of things. I'd also rather have an iPhone helping me out in the workshop than a laptop or desktop, for a bunch of reasons. I can use it as a measuring device, a level, a note-taking/shopping-list machine (hands free, even!), a youtube how-to player, an instruction manual finder, and so on, and it fits in my pocket and reasonable amounts of sawdust and liquid won't hurt it. That's creation. People spend most of their time on "real" computers consuming, too, by a huge margin. I still wouldn't say their (computers') primary focus is consumption. Anyway, the premise is kind of nonsense as consumption is a major part of many creative processes.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    This is all true. But the barrier to go from consuming to creating is a lot higher now. Making silly little programs in BASIC or Perl is a lot tougher on an iphone, and that's what sparked the interest for a lot of people (though maybe I'm wrong and it's getting easier?)
    - asark 8y ago
      For the specific case of creating software, then? I'd say the Swift Playground is (much) easier to get started with and also more compelling than hacking around with Perl on (at first) Win98 was.
Pigo 8y ago
This was my point, though you put it much more articulately. People used to make websites because they were enthusiastic about The Smashing Pumpkins, Fight Club, or their EverQuest guild. Now they make sites for a business. Business ruined eBay, and then it spread to the rest of the web. If you have a passion you want to building for, you have to accept a terms of service of a big platform and build with their tools. It might be easier, but it sure has been less fun to view.
icebraining 8y ago
> free webspace is dead Nope, it's better than ever. You have non-profit providers like https://neocities.org/ https://neocities.org/, regular shared hosting with free plans, and stuff like Github pages and Netlify for those with a bit more tech skills. Way better than the times when you had Geocities and such injecting ads into your site. > the desktop is dead (the laptop close behind it) No need for those to build a website. Any cheap Android phone can do it. > ftp is dead Nope, the previously mentioned shared hosting providers still offer it. > HTML is much more complex (e.g. responsive design) Old-school HTML pretty much works the same, and is actually quite fine on both desktop and mobile screens. -- Frankly, I don't think the problem is that making your own site has gotten any harder, it's that there was no FB/IG back then. Had there been FB pages from the start of the web, you'd probably would have never seen so many custom sites in the first place.
- hedora 8y ago
  > Had there been FB pages from the start of the web, you'd probably would have never seen so many custom sites in the first place. I’m not sure about this. AOL, Prodigy and CompuServe all had vibrant online communities. However, what you could do was much more limited than the federated web, and they were silos. Without the competition of “I’ll host my own server, and search engines will index it”, I wonder if FB and it’s predecessors would have been able to figure out what to build.
  - FussyZeus 8y ago
    Well Facebook was built on the failures of MySpace which in turn was built on the failures of Friendster, and so on. People who wanted their own space were always making their own space, and the rest would go to whichever social network was the most relevant at the time.
    - mtberatwork 8y ago
      Facebook wasn't built on MySpace's failures, they were both operating at the same time. People moved to Facebook because it was more intimate and less commercialized while MySpace turned into a dodgy spam heap.
Crinus 8y ago
Half of those you call dead (desktop, ftp, simple html) are things i use all the time :-P. And i'm sure free webspace isn't dead as i used one about 3 years ago which was the first hit on google among many and i doubt all of them vanished so fast.