4 ms·

> Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract. This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify pay

by dgzl 8y ago

> Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract. This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's intervention is violating our rights. We don't stand a chance bringing the homeless population back into the workforce with a high minimum wage, it's just not going to happen. People who support higher minimum wage don't seem to realize that it has negative side effects, like pushing lower-ranking employees out of the market.

hopler 8y ago
The professional economists who've actually researched this matter disagree with you.
- 0815test 8y ago
  France has sky-high minimum wages (and, just as importantly, labor market regulations), and the French labor market also has huge issues with low-skilled workers being essentially shut out of it. Coincidence? Germany had the same issue, and they had to introduce special "Minijobs" that don't pay minimum wage, to address it. Who are you going to believe, the professional economists who are actually researching the matter, or your lying eyes?
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    You forgot to mention how France has a significantly lower poverty rate than the US.
    - gwright 8y ago
      I don't know about French poverty stats, but in the US the typical stats regarding poverty are terrible misleading. The basic problem is the highly publicized poverty rate from the Census bureau excludes huge amounts of assistance (trillions of $$). Which leads to this perverse cycle: 1) observe poverty rate based on income is x% 2) argue successfully to increase assistance that won't be counted as income 3) observe that the poverty rate based on income hasn't changed 4) GOTO 2 Here is a good summary of this dysfunctional situation: https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-see-that-somebody-is-paying-attention-to-the-poverty-scam https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-...
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        That article is clearly biased as it calls the topic a “scam” with no evidence (and includes basically zero data citations). This argument is nothing new and it still doesn’t make sense. Of course we want to measure how people are doing before government assistance, how else would we know who needs assistance? Either way, this is besides the point anyone was making. We can look at French poverty rates, healthcare costs, or income distribution and see that they are outperforming the US in many areas. Their labor regulations are likely one of the reasons.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  and lots who don't http://www.econtalk.org/extra/where-have-all-the-busboys-gone/ http://www.econtalk.org/extra/where-have-all-the-busboys-gon...
JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
The point of a minimum wage is exactly to stop the those desperate for work to work for less than a living wage. This is due to the thought that allowing people to be hired for less than a living wage is essentially condemning those people to work for hours that are not healthy for mind or body in order to make ends meet. If a minimum wage is too high, then sure, its a bad thing because companies can't afford to hire workers for menial tasks which stops workers from working. But simultaneously, if it's too low, it leads to dangerous precedents exactly like you've described - menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for any kind of cash, leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to make a living wage - this is not a society I want to live in, and having to work exceedingly large hours due to my job not giving me enough money is also a "violation" of my human rights - that of a "just and favourable condition of work". The trick is of course balancing the minimum wage with it's downsides of being too high - and there is fair argument that the US has let this slip below livable wage. >This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's intervention is violating our rights. USA already has a problem with wealth inequality, and in the current system, removing minimum wage entirely would overall exacerbate this, not help, as now you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers - and the argument is that - increasingly - minimum wage workers already have trouble making ends meet. Minimum wage in this context is as much a Violation of rights as the context you are suggesting - and in my opinion, an odd choice of words to use in this context. Edit - Can you explain why I'm being downvoted? I don't think I've broken any rules here.
- dgzl 8y ago
  > menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for any kind of cash, leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to make a living wage Your point of view is that people who are willing to work for less are being exploited, but you fail entirely to see how real legally legitimate paid work would actually help underprivileged populations obtain success, as opposed to their current $0/hr wage. > now you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers You've said it yourself, dropping minimum wage would allow underprivileged workers the ability to compete for jobs. Maybe minimum-wage workers are scared that they'll lose their job to someone who's actually desperate for work.

by dgzl 8y ago

hopler 8y ago

The professional economists who've actually researched this matter disagree with you.

0815test 8y ago
France has sky-high minimum wages (and, just as importantly, labor market regulations), and the French labor market also has huge issues with low-skilled workers being essentially shut out of it. Coincidence? Germany had the same issue, and they had to introduce special "Minijobs" that don't pay minimum wage, to address it. Who are you going to believe, the professional economists who are actually researching the matter, or your lying eyes?
- moorhosj 8y ago
  You forgot to mention how France has a significantly lower poverty rate than the US.
  - gwright 8y ago
    I don't know about French poverty stats, but in the US the typical stats regarding poverty are terrible misleading. The basic problem is the highly publicized poverty rate from the Census bureau excludes huge amounts of assistance (trillions of $$). Which leads to this perverse cycle: 1) observe poverty rate based on income is x% 2) argue successfully to increase assistance that won't be counted as income 3) observe that the poverty rate based on income hasn't changed 4) GOTO 2 Here is a good summary of this dysfunctional situation: https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-see-that-somebody-is-paying-attention-to-the-poverty-scam https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-...
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      That article is clearly biased as it calls the topic a “scam” with no evidence (and includes basically zero data citations). This argument is nothing new and it still doesn’t make sense. Of course we want to measure how people are doing before government assistance, how else would we know who needs assistance? Either way, this is besides the point anyone was making. We can look at French poverty rates, healthcare costs, or income distribution and see that they are outperforming the US in many areas. Their labor regulations are likely one of the reasons.
tokyodude 8y ago
and lots who don't http://www.econtalk.org/extra/where-have-all-the-busboys-gone/ http://www.econtalk.org/extra/where-have-all-the-busboys-gon...

JauntyHatAngle 8y ago

The point of a minimum wage is exactly to stop the those desperate for work to work for less than a living wage. This is due to the thought that allowing people to be hired for less than a living wage is essentially condemning those people to work for hours that are not healthy for mind or body in order to make ends meet. If a minimum wage is too high, then sure, its a bad thing because companies can't afford to hire workers for menial tasks which stops workers from working. But simultaneously, if it's too low, it leads to dangerous precedents exactly like you've described - menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for any kind of cash, leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to make a living wage - this is not a society I want to live in, and having to work exceedingly large hours due to my job not giving me enough money is also a "violation" of my human rights - that of a "just and favourable condition of work". The trick is of course balancing the minimum wage with it's downsides of being too high - and there is fair argument that the US has let this slip below livable wage. >This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's intervention is violating our rights. USA already has a problem with wealth inequality, and in the current system, removing minimum wage entirely would overall exacerbate this, not help, as now you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers - and the argument is that - increasingly - minimum wage workers already have trouble making ends meet. Minimum wage in this context is as much a Violation of rights as the context you are suggesting - and in my opinion, an odd choice of words to use in this context. Edit - Can you explain why I'm being downvoted? I don't think I've broken any rules here.

dgzl 8y ago
> menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for any kind of cash, leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to make a living wage Your point of view is that people who are willing to work for less are being exploited, but you fail entirely to see how real legally legitimate paid work would actually help underprivileged populations obtain success, as opposed to their current $0/hr wage. > now you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers You've said it yourself, dropping minimum wage would allow underprivileged workers the ability to compete for jobs. Maybe minimum-wage workers are scared that they'll lose their job to someone who's actually desperate for work.