7 ms·

> 15 USD/hour SHOULD be a livable wage Says who? These numbers are arbitrary if we're slaves to inflation. $15 now seems like a goal, but the same amount a cen

by dgzl 8y ago

> 15 USD/hour SHOULD be a livable wage Says who? These numbers are arbitrary if we're slaves to inflation. $15 now seems like a goal, but the same amount a century ago was unthinkable. How long will it be before $15/hr isn't enough for even the most basic needs?

rak00n 8y ago
This should be a government's job to decide. Google isn't the authority that should decide on that.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  There are lot of things that should be the government's job, but aren't. In lieu of that, Google is responsible for its own actions, and Google is the one who is deciding to pay some contractors $15/hr.
- gwright 8y ago
  It seems strange to say that Google is the "authority" here. They are making a choice on how to run their business. There is no "authority" involved in that decision. But what makes you think the government should decide either? What makes you think that the government is capable of discerning the correct number? What makes you think there must be a single number? And if you think there should be a single number, why should it be $15/hr vs $10, $20, $50, or $100? How is it possible for a federal minimum wage to magically be "correct" for all combinations of: * geographic location and local economic conditions * experience of worker (e.g. teenagers 1st job vs young-adult vs senior citizen) * part time vs full time * no training required, some training required, lots of training required? * time-of-day (1st, 2nd, 3rd shift) * time-of-week (5x8, 4x10, 6x6) * intangible benefits (think internships to gain experience/skills/networks) I'm sure there are many more variables that could be added to that list. The real minimum wage is always 0, for the workers that didn't get hired. Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract.
  - dgzl 8y ago
    > Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract. This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's intervention is violating our rights. We don't stand a chance bringing the homeless population back into the workforce with a high minimum wage, it's just not going to happen. People who support higher minimum wage don't seem to realize that it has negative side effects, like pushing lower-ranking employees out of the market.
    - hopler 8y ago
      The professional economists who've actually researched this matter disagree with you.
      - 0815test 8y ago
        France has sky-high minimum wages (and, just as importantly, labor market regulations), and the French labor market also has huge issues with low-skilled workers being essentially shut out of it. Coincidence? Germany had the same issue, and they had to introduce special "Minijobs" that don't pay minimum wage, to address it. Who are you going to believe, the professional economists who are actually researching the matter, or your lying eyes?
        moorhosj 8y ago
        You forgot to mention how France has a significantly lower poverty rate than the US.
        gwright 8y ago
        I don't know about French poverty stats, but in the US the typical stats regarding poverty are terrible misleading. The basic problem is the highly publicized poverty rate from the Census bureau excludes huge amounts of assistance (trillions of $$). Which leads to this perverse cycle: 1) observe poverty rate based on income is x% 2) argue successfully to increase assistance that won't be counted as income 3) observe that the poverty rate based on income hasn't changed 4) GOTO 2 Here is a good summary of this dysfunctional situation: https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-see-that-somebody-is-paying-attention-to-the-poverty-scam https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-...
- DrScump 8y ago
  Government shouldn't have this power... but it could make contractor compensation not tax-deductible (or, less so) to incentivize direct employment.
maxerickson 8y ago
I think they are making an argument about the efficiency of the modern economy more than they are making an argument that people should be able to live on $15 given current prices. Looking at what it costs to produce the material goods required to maintain a decent (but minimal) standard of living, $15 an hour probably should be enough. That $15 isn't sufficient can then be taken as a prompt to look at the impacts of existing policies and who they benefit and so on.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  If you look at other countries then $15 an hour is a crazy high amount for a minimum wage. 6 years ago I had a full time software development job where I made $600 a month net. If you look at countries like Ukraine or Bulgaria you'll see even lower earnings. And it's not like average people in those countries are starving or dirt poor. They have cars, homes, computers, smartphones etc.
  - sdenton4 8y ago
    Computers and smartphones don't really matter when looking at a total-cost-of-living calculation in today's economy. In the US, they are vanishingly cheap compared to housing, health care and education (aka, servicing student debt). Cars cost a bit more (last I checked, some years ago, about $6k/year - base cost + gas + insurance). Rent is >$500 just about everywhere these days... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/saint-louis/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/sa... ). The US relies on employer-provided health insurance, but, as a result, employers keep people working multiple part time jobs to avoid footing the insurance costs. And since most people pay for education with loans, the lowest wage workers are often also left paying for years for failed attempts to get out of the lowest economic class.
- mjevans 8y ago
  Also, lets say we wave a want and everyone making less than 15 USD suddenly does. What would happen in today's climate? What has happened where I live as that has come closer to reality? The cost of __everything__ but particularly rent and other less elastic items have risen to match and overtake any gains. The true effect is to decrease the wealth of the middle class and only the "nobles" who own more than their own living abodes benefit.
JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
I mean, there are ways to change that, index it based on CPI or something (economists have better methods of doing that of course). But I think the point of "says who?" is a fair one, because livable wage in major cities is always way higher than in the smaller towns or outskirts.

by dgzl 8y ago

rak00n 8y ago

This should be a government's job to decide. Google isn't the authority that should decide on that.

darpa_escapee 8y ago
There are lot of things that should be the government's job, but aren't. In lieu of that, Google is responsible for its own actions, and Google is the one who is deciding to pay some contractors $15/hr.
gwright 8y ago
It seems strange to say that Google is the "authority" here. They are making a choice on how to run their business. There is no "authority" involved in that decision. But what makes you think the government should decide either? What makes you think that the government is capable of discerning the correct number? What makes you think there must be a single number? And if you think there should be a single number, why should it be $15/hr vs $10, $20, $50, or $100? How is it possible for a federal minimum wage to magically be "correct" for all combinations of: * geographic location and local economic conditions * experience of worker (e.g. teenagers 1st job vs young-adult vs senior citizen) * part time vs full time * no training required, some training required, lots of training required? * time-of-day (1st, 2nd, 3rd shift) * time-of-week (5x8, 4x10, 6x6) * intangible benefits (think internships to gain experience/skills/networks) I'm sure there are many more variables that could be added to that list. The real minimum wage is always 0, for the workers that didn't get hired. Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract.
- dgzl 8y ago
  > Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter into a contract. This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's intervention is violating our rights. We don't stand a chance bringing the homeless population back into the workforce with a high minimum wage, it's just not going to happen. People who support higher minimum wage don't seem to realize that it has negative side effects, like pushing lower-ranking employees out of the market.
  - hopler 8y ago
    The professional economists who've actually researched this matter disagree with you.
    - 0815test 8y ago
      France has sky-high minimum wages (and, just as importantly, labor market regulations), and the French labor market also has huge issues with low-skilled workers being essentially shut out of it. Coincidence? Germany had the same issue, and they had to introduce special "Minijobs" that don't pay minimum wage, to address it. Who are you going to believe, the professional economists who are actually researching the matter, or your lying eyes?
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        You forgot to mention how France has a significantly lower poverty rate than the US.
        gwright 8y ago
        I don't know about French poverty stats, but in the US the typical stats regarding poverty are terrible misleading. The basic problem is the highly publicized poverty rate from the Census bureau excludes huge amounts of assistance (trillions of $$). Which leads to this perverse cycle: 1) observe poverty rate based on income is x% 2) argue successfully to increase assistance that won't be counted as income 3) observe that the poverty rate based on income hasn't changed 4) GOTO 2 Here is a good summary of this dysfunctional situation: https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-see-that-somebody-is-paying-attention-to-the-poverty-scam https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-14-nice-to-...
DrScump 8y ago
Government shouldn't have this power... but it could make contractor compensation not tax-deductible (or, less so) to incentivize direct employment.

maxerickson 8y ago

I think they are making an argument about the efficiency of the modern economy more than they are making an argument that people should be able to live on $15 given current prices. Looking at what it costs to produce the material goods required to maintain a decent (but minimal) standard of living, $15 an hour probably should be enough. That $15 isn't sufficient can then be taken as a prompt to look at the impacts of existing policies and who they benefit and so on.

Mirioron 8y ago
If you look at other countries then $15 an hour is a crazy high amount for a minimum wage. 6 years ago I had a full time software development job where I made $600 a month net. If you look at countries like Ukraine or Bulgaria you'll see even lower earnings. And it's not like average people in those countries are starving or dirt poor. They have cars, homes, computers, smartphones etc.
- sdenton4 8y ago
  Computers and smartphones don't really matter when looking at a total-cost-of-living calculation in today's economy. In the US, they are vanishingly cheap compared to housing, health care and education (aka, servicing student debt). Cars cost a bit more (last I checked, some years ago, about $6k/year - base cost + gas + insurance). Rent is >$500 just about everywhere these days... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/saint-louis/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/sa... ). The US relies on employer-provided health insurance, but, as a result, employers keep people working multiple part time jobs to avoid footing the insurance costs. And since most people pay for education with loans, the lowest wage workers are often also left paying for years for failed attempts to get out of the lowest economic class.
mjevans 8y ago
Also, lets say we wave a want and everyone making less than 15 USD suddenly does. What would happen in today's climate? What has happened where I live as that has come closer to reality? The cost of __everything__ but particularly rent and other less elastic items have risen to match and overtake any gains. The true effect is to decrease the wealth of the middle class and only the "nobles" who own more than their own living abodes benefit.

JauntyHatAngle 8y ago

I mean, there are ways to change that, index it based on CPI or something (economists have better methods of doing that of course). But I think the point of "says who?" is a fair one, because livable wage in major cities is always way higher than in the smaller towns or outskirts.