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> Only no one cares about that. I really wish people would stop saying this. It is a completely idiotic statement. There are hundreds of people throughout hist

by jimmy1 8y ago

> Only no one cares about that. I really wish people would stop saying this. It is a completely idiotic statement. There are hundreds of people throughout history that quite literally gave their lives for privacy, as recent as one generation ago. Complacency and the silent majority does not equate to "no one cares about that" otherwise, you wouldn't have so many privacy centers and advocacy groups throughout the country. > Most people don't have anything to hide from advertisers. "'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings Of Privacy" https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1159&context=faculty_publications https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=... It's a good read, and I hope it convinces you otherwise that privacy is as important as ever, even in lieu of fallacious "nothing to hide" arguments. From the paper, the easiest way to debunk the "nothing to hide" argument is to ask easy questions. "I've got nothing to hide." "OK, so why do you have curtains or blinds in your home?" "OK you have nothing to hide, so can I see your past credit card statements?" If we all have nothing to hide, why don't those interested in our private lives show us theirs? It's the ole "Show me yours and I’ll show you mine" adage.

malvosenior 8y ago
My point is that there is no proposed alternative. Why is there no privacy focused Facebook or Google? The answer is that privacy is not valuable enough to most people to endure the switching costs and alternative solutions don't even exist. So the discussion then comes down to going offline all together (which no one will do) or as this OP asks for: more regulation. Only that further slows down the pace of innovation and further entrenches the large players due to regulatory capture. The article you post is a perfect example of why privacy doesn't matter. Do you think the average FB user will wade through that then erase their account? No. They want the value they get out of FB and nowhere in the counter argument is any suggestion of alternatives.
- uabstraction 8y ago
  > Why is there no privacy focused Facebook or Google? The tongue-in-cheek answer to this is that they all eventually get bought by Facebook or Google. Anything that poses a threat to Facebook or Google will fold for the right price, as a simple matter of serving the fiduciary interest of the investors. The only platforms which can hold out are the ones explicitly designed to resist centralization. They have no pitch to make to investors, no funds for promotion, but the technology is there. Mastodon and Matrix are proof. The technology is dead simple. Facebook, Reddit and Twitter are nothing but glorified shiny message boards. WhatsApp, Discord, and Skype are nothing but glorified shiny VoIP apps. The only thing that makes them special is the branding
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    I'd go even further and say that the larger platforms are anti-privacy by design, because their core purpose has always been concerned with data collection. I think the large online social networks are in the same vein fundamentally rightwing, because profiting from the efforts of others has nothing whatsoever to do with leftism. IRL, if you want privacy, you avoid groups. I don't see why the digital realm should be viewed any differently. So there's a duality with social networkers, in that they may want privacy for themselves, yet a large reason for being on those platforms is to learn about everyone else. From a safe distance.
  - zbentley 8y ago
    > The only platforms which can hold out are the ones explicitly designed to resist centralization. They don't make money, tempt investors, or entice advertisers, for shit. You might not want that to be what defines a successful business right now, but it is. > The technology is dead simple. Not simple enough (IRC/Mastodon/dex-$x). People vote with their feet. When something decentralized provides a better user experience than one of the behemoths, and figures out a way to market itself into network-effect prosperity, then things will improve. Until then, don't bother.
- yummypaint 8y ago
  Duckduckgo is privacy-oriented google. Facebook is losing users in droves.
cblades 8y ago
I think it's very fair to say that your average user absolutely does not care about privacy past catastrophic and specific leaks or revelations based on their own private data. Wether that's wise or not is definitely up for debate. I think we'd be much better off instilling a higher value for privacy than we'd be trying to legislate and regulate the problem away. Companies will find ways to skirt legal measures, but an evaporating user base cannot be ignored.
- CharlesColeman 8y ago
  > I think it's very fair to say that your average user absolutely does not care about privacy past catastrophic and specific leaks or revelations based on their own private data. I don't think that is "very fair to say." For instance, you might also claim that "you average citizen" does not care about having a right to a fair trail and a whole host of other good things. If you have any evidence to back up your assertion, it's probably confounded by interference from people's other priorities and problems. To get a truly accurate sense of how much "your average user" cares about privacy, you need to control for both the ignorance of some users and the likely sense of helplessness of others. It's weaselly to say that someone with undiagnosed cancer doesn't care about having cancer, just because they don't know they have it, for instance. To truly understand how they feel, you have to tell them their diagnosis, and maybe even explain cancer and its implications to them. > I think we'd be much better off instilling a higher value for privacy than we'd be trying to legislate and regulate the problem away. Companies will find ways to skirt legal measures, but an evaporating user base cannot be ignored. You could make the same case against antipollution regulation, and it would be just as weak as you argument against privacy regulation. Your proposed solution is fatally undermined by a collective action problem [1]. The solution to the problem of companies skirting legal measures is to either amend the measures or sanction the skirting of them -- both things that are often done in functioning governments. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
  - zbentley 8y ago
    > you need to control for both the ignorance of some users and the likely sense of helplessness of others How? How would you control for that without powerfully suggesting potentially desirable outcomes in any sort of interview/survey?
Diederich 8y ago
> There are hundreds of people throughout history that quite literally gave their lives for privacy, as recent as one generation ago. No trolling at all; can you give me a few pointers about how to research this? Thanks.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  It was a claim by extension I must admit: You could technically say each American that dies, dies for our freedoms, one of which is our constitutional right to privacy. A specific example I had in mind was those who lost their lives fleeing East Germany and the Stasi: deciding to cross the wall or even talking about it often time resulted in your untimely death. Many people were gunned down trying to climb over. A general "people who died for privacy" netted some decent results as well.
themacguffinman 8y ago
There is a difference between social privacy and data privacy. I close the curtains and cover my credit card statements because I want social privacy. I don't care if Google's machines have the same information on me.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  No, there isn't. It's about power in either case.

by jimmy1 8y ago

malvosenior 8y ago

My point is that there is no proposed alternative. Why is there no privacy focused Facebook or Google? The answer is that privacy is not valuable enough to most people to endure the switching costs and alternative solutions don't even exist. So the discussion then comes down to going offline all together (which no one will do) or as this OP asks for: more regulation. Only that further slows down the pace of innovation and further entrenches the large players due to regulatory capture. The article you post is a perfect example of why privacy doesn't matter. Do you think the average FB user will wade through that then erase their account? No. They want the value they get out of FB and nowhere in the counter argument is any suggestion of alternatives.

uabstraction 8y ago
> Why is there no privacy focused Facebook or Google? The tongue-in-cheek answer to this is that they all eventually get bought by Facebook or Google. Anything that poses a threat to Facebook or Google will fold for the right price, as a simple matter of serving the fiduciary interest of the investors. The only platforms which can hold out are the ones explicitly designed to resist centralization. They have no pitch to make to investors, no funds for promotion, but the technology is there. Mastodon and Matrix are proof. The technology is dead simple. Facebook, Reddit and Twitter are nothing but glorified shiny message boards. WhatsApp, Discord, and Skype are nothing but glorified shiny VoIP apps. The only thing that makes them special is the branding
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  I'd go even further and say that the larger platforms are anti-privacy by design, because their core purpose has always been concerned with data collection. I think the large online social networks are in the same vein fundamentally rightwing, because profiting from the efforts of others has nothing whatsoever to do with leftism. IRL, if you want privacy, you avoid groups. I don't see why the digital realm should be viewed any differently. So there's a duality with social networkers, in that they may want privacy for themselves, yet a large reason for being on those platforms is to learn about everyone else. From a safe distance.
- zbentley 8y ago
  > The only platforms which can hold out are the ones explicitly designed to resist centralization. They don't make money, tempt investors, or entice advertisers, for shit. You might not want that to be what defines a successful business right now, but it is. > The technology is dead simple. Not simple enough (IRC/Mastodon/dex-$x). People vote with their feet. When something decentralized provides a better user experience than one of the behemoths, and figures out a way to market itself into network-effect prosperity, then things will improve. Until then, don't bother.
yummypaint 8y ago
Duckduckgo is privacy-oriented google. Facebook is losing users in droves.

cblades 8y ago

I think it's very fair to say that your average user absolutely does not care about privacy past catastrophic and specific leaks or revelations based on their own private data. Wether that's wise or not is definitely up for debate. I think we'd be much better off instilling a higher value for privacy than we'd be trying to legislate and regulate the problem away. Companies will find ways to skirt legal measures, but an evaporating user base cannot be ignored.

CharlesColeman 8y ago
> I think it's very fair to say that your average user absolutely does not care about privacy past catastrophic and specific leaks or revelations based on their own private data. I don't think that is "very fair to say." For instance, you might also claim that "you average citizen" does not care about having a right to a fair trail and a whole host of other good things. If you have any evidence to back up your assertion, it's probably confounded by interference from people's other priorities and problems. To get a truly accurate sense of how much "your average user" cares about privacy, you need to control for both the ignorance of some users and the likely sense of helplessness of others. It's weaselly to say that someone with undiagnosed cancer doesn't care about having cancer, just because they don't know they have it, for instance. To truly understand how they feel, you have to tell them their diagnosis, and maybe even explain cancer and its implications to them. > I think we'd be much better off instilling a higher value for privacy than we'd be trying to legislate and regulate the problem away. Companies will find ways to skirt legal measures, but an evaporating user base cannot be ignored. You could make the same case against antipollution regulation, and it would be just as weak as you argument against privacy regulation. Your proposed solution is fatally undermined by a collective action problem [1]. The solution to the problem of companies skirting legal measures is to either amend the measures or sanction the skirting of them -- both things that are often done in functioning governments. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
- zbentley 8y ago
  > you need to control for both the ignorance of some users and the likely sense of helplessness of others How? How would you control for that without powerfully suggesting potentially desirable outcomes in any sort of interview/survey?

Diederich 8y ago

> There are hundreds of people throughout history that quite literally gave their lives for privacy, as recent as one generation ago. No trolling at all; can you give me a few pointers about how to research this? Thanks.

jimmy1 8y ago
It was a claim by extension I must admit: You could technically say each American that dies, dies for our freedoms, one of which is our constitutional right to privacy. A specific example I had in mind was those who lost their lives fleeing East Germany and the Stasi: deciding to cross the wall or even talking about it often time resulted in your untimely death. Many people were gunned down trying to climb over. A general "people who died for privacy" netted some decent results as well.

themacguffinman 8y ago

There is a difference between social privacy and data privacy. I close the curtains and cover my credit card statements because I want social privacy. I don't care if Google's machines have the same information on me.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
No, there isn't. It's about power in either case.