4 ms·

> Waiting 4 months for a minimal response from a vendor with > such a large percentage of the market is unacceptable. Umm... expecting any kind of response fr

> Waiting 4 months for a minimal response from a vendor with > such a large percentage of the market is unacceptable. Umm... expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. Who are you to demand any kind of response from anyone? Big project or small? You'd probably be less offended if you had a better sense of self awareness about the nature of your relationship with Google. Thinking that Google should kowtow to your desire to build a product is pretty foolish. You need to build a product and get some traction and then have some leverage. Widevine is evil. Google is evil. ... but so is Electron, and requiring your users to use a custom browser to use your product / feature. How about an Web Extension that coordinates playback in the browser, as opposed to a whole custom browser?

CodeCube 8y ago
He addresses this point specifically in his post ... developing it as an extension would reduce the features he can support, and further entrench it in google's walled garden (since he'd have to publish it on the chrome store). I don't have much more context in this person's project than anyone else, but your response is kind of the point, one vendor has too much power because they can't be expected to support any kind of innovative ecosystem; yeah, that's not a great state of affairs, and begins to echo/suggest anti-competitive practices (whether on purpose, or just as a function of their size)
- toastal 8y ago
  Wouldn't a WebExtensions get you further out of the walled garden? Electron you're stuck with Blink where WebExtensions work with Gecko and Webkit as well.
  - Moseman23 8y ago
    Yes, but he seems to be saying he wants the wide distribution that comes from being on the dominant browser without being in the "walled garden" of the Chrome store, since the other browsers have vanishing market share.
- tracker1 8y ago
  Worse still, if this offers an enhanced interface or "unwanted" options over YouTube, it's likely the extension itself may well not make it into the store. To make matters worse is side-loading of extensions is pretty much a non-starter for Chrome now that dev-mode is a nag screen on each start (at least last time I used it). I had a couple side loaded extensions, and the nag got me to do what google wanted, stop using them altogether.
  - pcnix 8y ago
    Dev mode seems to work without any extra windows for me, maybe things are different now?
sova 8y ago
Although you make some valid points it should not be main practice for companies to dominate the software scene, how else did the original great SW get made? It's almost impossible to start a garage band company and this is like large trees in the canopy shading out more light to the forest floor. Granted, it's not the best or only example of this interaction, but independent devs need equal representation against the Giants especially in starting new products.
imhelpingu 8y ago
This is why everyone used to understand the need to regulate in a way that promotes competition. The idea was promote.
RandomBacon 8y ago
> expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. Are you saying Google is too big to be responsible? Amazon is huge, and I'm able to get a customer service represenatitve in seconds.
- ryanolsonx 8y ago
  Amazon has customers that they sell products to. Google has products (us) that they sell info about to others. It's kind of a big difference.
  - glennpratt 8y ago
    This is such a silly comment repeated in every thread possible. Google and Amazon both have paid customer facing products with human support and advertising. They aren't remotely exclusive.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      > Google and Amazon both have paid customer facing products And this ain't really one of 'em, last I checked. It's freeware.
- glennpratt 8y ago
  I don't see your point. For products you pay for, you can get Google support in seconds as well. This really isn't a customer support question.
  - NewsAware 8y ago
    Not really. Tried to get an invoice for a Playstore Dev account (50€) which didn't show up in Google Wallet 2weeks ago and support was non-responsive
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
danShumway 8y ago
It is a problem that they had to ask. This line of thought is exactly how companies take over open markets and kill them. Google proposes: A) "It's fine for DRM to be standardized, because anyone can just ask us to use implementations like Widevine." then follows up with B) "We can't possibly be expected to handle every single request that we're given! Give us a break, this is hard." If Google wants to be the web's gatekeeper for who's allowed to stream video, then yes, they'd better be really stinking attentive to little hobby projects and startups. Because they chose to take on that responsibility. If they don't want that responsibility, then all they have to do is stop gatekeeping. Distribute Widevine as a binary blob, but come up with some universal terms so that any browser can download and distribute it without asking permission.
- Spivak 8y ago
  How does Firefox accomplish it? They (appear) to download the module on-demand.
  - danShumway 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure that Firefox has a license to do so, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I suspect the download-on-demand behavior is less about licensing and more about not installing DRM onto a user's computer without their permission.
jcoffland 8y ago
>> Waiting 4 months for a minimal response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is unacceptable. > Umm... expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. Are you suggesting we all bow obsequiously to the great corporation?
hluska 8y ago
I have a few points: 1. Why do you have to be so rude? Maybe this isn’t intentional, but your words are mocking and insulting. Do you actually think you could change someone’s mind spouting off like that? If so, you don’t understand humans. If not, that comment was a giant waste of time. 2. If the way you spoke to this person represents how you wish to conduct yourself, perhaps it would be wise to remove the ‘we’re hiring’ on your profile. I’m not looking, but if I was, I would avoid your company based on this comment.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  That comment didn't really read as any more rude than your own, IMO. Maybe you're just responding to rudeness with rudeness, though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there.
  - EB66 8y ago
    I agree with hluska. I also found numbsafari's comment unnecessarily rude and flippant. I'm sure Bainbridge Health would not appreciate being represented like that in a public forum.
  - hluska 8y ago
    Yeah, you’re right, I wasn’t my usual self. I’d edit it to soften my words, but then your comment will lose its value and I’d rather not do that to you. If I could point out one thing that separates our accounts, I don’t use this account to recruit or advertise. I have an email address in my profile because I mostly like talking to interesting people about interesting things. That’s not an excuse for my reply - my reply was complete bullshit. But, my reply might have been a little closer to my usual self if I used this account for something else. Thanks for your comment. You’re right about me. I was wrong.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      No worries. I've been there, too :) You're not necessarily wrong to evaluate the GP's company based on the GP's views. HN is one of those weird grey areas where lots of people implicitly represent the companies for which they work (and don't do the normal "the views expressed herein are not representative of $COMPANY") without necessarily realizing it. While I don't believe the comment was particularly out of line, I can see why others would disagree, and I do agree that caution is worthwhile in the absence of an explicit disconnect between one's own opinions and those of one's employer. I will, of course, say right now that my own views are not representative of my employer's views (hell, my views tend to be the precise opposite of my employer's views at times ;) ).
EB66 8y ago
> Umm... expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. How is expecting a response in less than 4 months arrogant? If anything, the OP has been extremely patient. > Thinking that Google should kowtow to your desire to build a product is pretty foolish. Is open and fair competition in the marketplace also foolish? Regardless of what current regulations are, I wouldn't describe open DRM as "kowtowing" to a competitor -- if we value open and fair marketplace competition, then DRM ought to be open. > Who are you to demand any kind of response from anyone? Big project or small? You'd probably be less offended if you had a better sense of self awareness about the nature of your relationship with Google. Your response seems to suggest that the OP should happily grovel at the feet of Google and be ever so thankful if Google manages to find the time to make a reply. If Google wants to be a gatekeeper for DRM, then that's not how things should work.

CodeCube 8y ago

He addresses this point specifically in his post ... developing it as an extension would reduce the features he can support, and further entrench it in google's walled garden (since he'd have to publish it on the chrome store). I don't have much more context in this person's project than anyone else, but your response is kind of the point, one vendor has too much power because they can't be expected to support any kind of innovative ecosystem; yeah, that's not a great state of affairs, and begins to echo/suggest anti-competitive practices (whether on purpose, or just as a function of their size)

toastal 8y ago
Wouldn't a WebExtensions get you further out of the walled garden? Electron you're stuck with Blink where WebExtensions work with Gecko and Webkit as well.
- Moseman23 8y ago
  Yes, but he seems to be saying he wants the wide distribution that comes from being on the dominant browser without being in the "walled garden" of the Chrome store, since the other browsers have vanishing market share.
tracker1 8y ago
Worse still, if this offers an enhanced interface or "unwanted" options over YouTube, it's likely the extension itself may well not make it into the store. To make matters worse is side-loading of extensions is pretty much a non-starter for Chrome now that dev-mode is a nag screen on each start (at least last time I used it). I had a couple side loaded extensions, and the nag got me to do what google wanted, stop using them altogether.
- pcnix 8y ago
  Dev mode seems to work without any extra windows for me, maybe things are different now?

sova 8y ago

Although you make some valid points it should not be main practice for companies to dominate the software scene, how else did the original great SW get made? It's almost impossible to start a garage band company and this is like large trees in the canopy shading out more light to the forest floor. Granted, it's not the best or only example of this interaction, but independent devs need equal representation against the Giants especially in starting new products.

imhelpingu 8y ago

This is why everyone used to understand the need to regulate in a way that promotes competition. The idea was promote.

RandomBacon 8y ago

> expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. Are you saying Google is too big to be responsible? Amazon is huge, and I'm able to get a customer service represenatitve in seconds.

ryanolsonx 8y ago
Amazon has customers that they sell products to. Google has products (us) that they sell info about to others. It's kind of a big difference.
- glennpratt 8y ago
  This is such a silly comment repeated in every thread possible. Google and Amazon both have paid customer facing products with human support and advertising. They aren't remotely exclusive.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    > Google and Amazon both have paid customer facing products And this ain't really one of 'em, last I checked. It's freeware.
glennpratt 8y ago
I don't see your point. For products you pay for, you can get Google support in seconds as well. This really isn't a customer support question.
- NewsAware 8y ago
  Not really. Tried to get an invoice for a Playstore Dev account (50€) which didn't show up in Google Wallet 2weeks ago and support was non-responsive
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

danShumway 8y ago

It is a problem that they had to ask. This line of thought is exactly how companies take over open markets and kill them. Google proposes: A) "It's fine for DRM to be standardized, because anyone can just ask us to use implementations like Widevine." then follows up with B) "We can't possibly be expected to handle every single request that we're given! Give us a break, this is hard." If Google wants to be the web's gatekeeper for who's allowed to stream video, then yes, they'd better be really stinking attentive to little hobby projects and startups. Because they chose to take on that responsibility. If they don't want that responsibility, then all they have to do is stop gatekeeping. Distribute Widevine as a binary blob, but come up with some universal terms so that any browser can download and distribute it without asking permission.

Spivak 8y ago
How does Firefox accomplish it? They (appear) to download the module on-demand.
- danShumway 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure that Firefox has a license to do so, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I suspect the download-on-demand behavior is less about licensing and more about not installing DRM onto a user's computer without their permission.

jcoffland 8y ago

>> Waiting 4 months for a minimal response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is unacceptable. > Umm... expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. Are you suggesting we all bow obsequiously to the great corporation?

hluska 8y ago

I have a few points: 1. Why do you have to be so rude? Maybe this isn’t intentional, but your words are mocking and insulting. Do you actually think you could change someone’s mind spouting off like that? If so, you don’t understand humans. If not, that comment was a giant waste of time. 2. If the way you spoke to this person represents how you wish to conduct yourself, perhaps it would be wise to remove the ‘we’re hiring’ on your profile. I’m not looking, but if I was, I would avoid your company based on this comment.

yellowapple 8y ago
That comment didn't really read as any more rude than your own, IMO. Maybe you're just responding to rudeness with rudeness, though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there.
- EB66 8y ago
  I agree with hluska. I also found numbsafari's comment unnecessarily rude and flippant. I'm sure Bainbridge Health would not appreciate being represented like that in a public forum.
- hluska 8y ago
  Yeah, you’re right, I wasn’t my usual self. I’d edit it to soften my words, but then your comment will lose its value and I’d rather not do that to you. If I could point out one thing that separates our accounts, I don’t use this account to recruit or advertise. I have an email address in my profile because I mostly like talking to interesting people about interesting things. That’s not an excuse for my reply - my reply was complete bullshit. But, my reply might have been a little closer to my usual self if I used this account for something else. Thanks for your comment. You’re right about me. I was wrong.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    No worries. I've been there, too :) You're not necessarily wrong to evaluate the GP's company based on the GP's views. HN is one of those weird grey areas where lots of people implicitly represent the companies for which they work (and don't do the normal "the views expressed herein are not representative of $COMPANY") without necessarily realizing it. While I don't believe the comment was particularly out of line, I can see why others would disagree, and I do agree that caution is worthwhile in the absence of an explicit disconnect between one's own opinions and those of one's employer. I will, of course, say right now that my own views are not representative of my employer's views (hell, my views tend to be the precise opposite of my employer's views at times ;) ).

EB66 8y ago

> Umm... expecting any kind of response from a vendor with such a large percentage of the market is... kinda arrogant. How is expecting a response in less than 4 months arrogant? If anything, the OP has been extremely patient. > Thinking that Google should kowtow to your desire to build a product is pretty foolish. Is open and fair competition in the marketplace also foolish? Regardless of what current regulations are, I wouldn't describe open DRM as "kowtowing" to a competitor -- if we value open and fair marketplace competition, then DRM ought to be open. > Who are you to demand any kind of response from anyone? Big project or small? You'd probably be less offended if you had a better sense of self awareness about the nature of your relationship with Google. Your response seems to suggest that the OP should happily grovel at the feet of Google and be ever so thankful if Google manages to find the time to make a reply. If Google wants to be a gatekeeper for DRM, then that's not how things should work.