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I wouldn’t say there are no differences between the “male” and “female” brain. I do know my brain wasn’t very happy on the hormones I was born producing — and t

I wouldn’t say there are no differences between the “male” and “female” brain. I do know my brain wasn’t very happy on the hormones I was born producing — and there’s promising research about how gender identity actually has a basis in physical differences in brain structure [1] which are hypothesized to form based on exposure to various hormone levels during gestation (and which have already been shown to impact gender identity through the very elevated rates of transition of children of mothers who took the synthetic estrogen diethylstilbesterol). But like anything involving gendered characteristics in humans as expressed in the world, the range of observed behaviors within the two populations overlaps so much it’s hard to draw meaningful conclusions about any individual by differentiating the two. Based on my personal experience and from talking to others who have medically transitioned, the difference between “inherently male” behaviors and “inherently female” behaviors can be nearly entirely explained by hormones. As in, you change hormones and the behavior changes: testosterone tends to cause elevated anger / aggression while estrogen tends to make people more neurotic with a wider range of emotional response. That’s it. The rest of the differences are either personality or environmental / social factors. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8

tnzn 8y ago
There is still flaw in the reasoning though. Transitionning implies much more than just a change in hormone balance as you are aware. Plus emotionnal responses to subjective feelings and physiological cues are not free from social influence either.
naasking 8y ago
> testosterone tends to cause elevated anger / aggression And sexual interest. Hormones actually have many effects, but those are the most immediate/obvious ones.
opwieurposiu 8y ago
This "too much overlap to draw a distinction" idea seems silly. The border between orange and yellow has overlap and can not be precisely defined, and yet we still can recognize the difference between orange and yellow. Many statistical techniques have been invented to prevent outliers from biasing correlations.
- exelius 8y ago
  It’s uncontroversial to say that on average, men are taller than women. But other characteristics such as nutrition and genetics matter more: the average German woman (5’5”) is significantly taller than the average Peruvian man (5’1”). My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > the difference between men and women on most metrics I think that's the problem part of your argument. There's no qualification of what "most metrics" includes, much less whether that holds true for must neurological effects (which is more to the point), and that's before we even get around to discussing the fact that I'm sure there's a bunch of metrics we don't even know about. Your statement might be entirely true. Unfortunately I don't know enough to judge the claims in it, I don't even know if we're at a level where we can judge the claims, and regardless you didn't provide any evidence to support it or help with that in any way. I'm not sure how it brings us any closer to an understanding of the issue. Edit: rationale on down votes would be appreciated...
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    - esyir 8y ago
      Because we do known that men and women are neurologically different. There's a wealth of evidence suggesting so. And considering what we know about sexual dimorphism, this is completely unsurprising.
      - kbenson 8y ago
        I was responding to a comment that said "My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors." Given the topic, I took that as an argument that the neurological differences are not as pronounced as what is created by external factors, and I was responding to the lack of evidence provided for that view (which I interpret as the opposite of the view you suggested). I actually lean towards your position, but I wasn't trying to express that as an argument (I'm unqualified to). I was just trying to point out what I saw as at best very loose reasoning (at least when provided without evidence).
boomboomsubban 8y ago
>I wouldn’t say there are no differences between the “male” and “female” brain. I do know my brain wasn’t very happy on the hormones I was born producing — and there’s promising research about how gender identity actually has a basis in physical differences in brain structure You could view this as "no difference" though, as your gender identity would not rely on a male or female phenotype.
dominotw 8y ago
What is the difference between you and your brain? Aren't 'your' thoughts thought by your brain
belorn 8y ago
Testosterone and estrogen studies are quite interesting in that they are marinated in cultural bias. A lot of studies that historically linked aggression with testosterone or estrogen with mood swings have later been found to be on shaky ground. Funny enough, estrogen has also been linked to increased aggression just as testosterone. You take a baboon and look at when females act most violently and it spikes just as estrogen spikes. Same for violence in women prisons. At the same time, depression also spikes which further suggest that estrogen causes wild mood swings. But when we look at more modern studies a new pattern is emerging. For high social status individuals we see the exact same pattern as old studies, but as we go down the social ladder the picture change. For testosterone the current findings seem to link it to increases learned behavior when a individual has their social status challenge. That response in baboons is always more violence, but directed at the nearest individuals below them on the social ladder. For estrogen you see a drop in violence as you go down the social status ladder, while isolationing behavior goes up. An other relative recent finding is that hormone secretion increase in men after winning social status. Unsurprising that correlated in animal studies when males has the highest probability of reproduction. Hormones are useful when explaining behavior linked to reproduction, and in that you do get some gender differences. I would however be a bit cautious. A good talk I would recommend is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnSY4L3V8s&t=30m17s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnSY4L3V8s&t=30m17s as it explore this a bit further.

tnzn 8y ago

There is still flaw in the reasoning though. Transitionning implies much more than just a change in hormone balance as you are aware. Plus emotionnal responses to subjective feelings and physiological cues are not free from social influence either.

naasking 8y ago

> testosterone tends to cause elevated anger / aggression And sexual interest. Hormones actually have many effects, but those are the most immediate/obvious ones.

opwieurposiu 8y ago

This "too much overlap to draw a distinction" idea seems silly. The border between orange and yellow has overlap and can not be precisely defined, and yet we still can recognize the difference between orange and yellow. Many statistical techniques have been invented to prevent outliers from biasing correlations.

exelius 8y ago
It’s uncontroversial to say that on average, men are taller than women. But other characteristics such as nutrition and genetics matter more: the average German woman (5’5”) is significantly taller than the average Peruvian man (5’1”). My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors.
- kbenson 8y ago
  > the difference between men and women on most metrics I think that's the problem part of your argument. There's no qualification of what "most metrics" includes, much less whether that holds true for must neurological effects (which is more to the point), and that's before we even get around to discussing the fact that I'm sure there's a bunch of metrics we don't even know about. Your statement might be entirely true. Unfortunately I don't know enough to judge the claims in it, I don't even know if we're at a level where we can judge the claims, and regardless you didn't provide any evidence to support it or help with that in any way. I'm not sure how it brings us any closer to an understanding of the issue. Edit: rationale on down votes would be appreciated...
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - esyir 8y ago
    Because we do known that men and women are neurologically different. There's a wealth of evidence suggesting so. And considering what we know about sexual dimorphism, this is completely unsurprising.
    - kbenson 8y ago
      I was responding to a comment that said "My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors." Given the topic, I took that as an argument that the neurological differences are not as pronounced as what is created by external factors, and I was responding to the lack of evidence provided for that view (which I interpret as the opposite of the view you suggested). I actually lean towards your position, but I wasn't trying to express that as an argument (I'm unqualified to). I was just trying to point out what I saw as at best very loose reasoning (at least when provided without evidence).

boomboomsubban 8y ago

>I wouldn’t say there are no differences between the “male” and “female” brain. I do know my brain wasn’t very happy on the hormones I was born producing — and there’s promising research about how gender identity actually has a basis in physical differences in brain structure You could view this as "no difference" though, as your gender identity would not rely on a male or female phenotype.

dominotw 8y ago

What is the difference between you and your brain? Aren't 'your' thoughts thought by your brain

belorn 8y ago

Testosterone and estrogen studies are quite interesting in that they are marinated in cultural bias. A lot of studies that historically linked aggression with testosterone or estrogen with mood swings have later been found to be on shaky ground. Funny enough, estrogen has also been linked to increased aggression just as testosterone. You take a baboon and look at when females act most violently and it spikes just as estrogen spikes. Same for violence in women prisons. At the same time, depression also spikes which further suggest that estrogen causes wild mood swings. But when we look at more modern studies a new pattern is emerging. For high social status individuals we see the exact same pattern as old studies, but as we go down the social ladder the picture change. For testosterone the current findings seem to link it to increases learned behavior when a individual has their social status challenge. That response in baboons is always more violence, but directed at the nearest individuals below them on the social ladder. For estrogen you see a drop in violence as you go down the social status ladder, while isolationing behavior goes up. An other relative recent finding is that hormone secretion increase in men after winning social status. Unsurprising that correlated in animal studies when males has the highest probability of reproduction. Hormones are useful when explaining behavior linked to reproduction, and in that you do get some gender differences. I would however be a bit cautious. A good talk I would recommend is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnSY4L3V8s&t=30m17s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnSY4L3V8s&t=30m17s as it explore this a bit further.