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> a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. Except work reliably without me having to waste time fid

> a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. Except work reliably without me having to waste time fiddling around with drivers and settings. A few weeks ago, I installed Ubuntu 18.04, the latest LTS version, on my desktop. So, this isn't some nerdy Arch or Gentoo setup, it is basically the most mainstream GNU/Linux-based OS you could possibly imagine. I couldn't even log in because the Nouveau driver would crash every time I tried. (Maybe they've never tested it on a 4K display? Or with my specific card? Who knows.) Also, Ctrl+Alt+FN to go to a TTY did not work, so I couldn't even fix it by installing the proprietary Nvidia drivers from there. I was able to log in by changing to a non-default desktop environment, or maybe login/display manager? I don't remember the details. Anyway, it "worked", with slideshow-tier FPS, until I installed the proprietary drivers and everything was fine. This isn't a fluke -- it is consistent with almost 15 years of experiences trying to use GNU/Linux on the desktop. Something like this has simply never happened to me when using an Apple product.

ufo 8y ago
You might have actually had an easier time on a nerdy arch or Gentoo setup. The Nouveau driver is heroically reverse-engineered by volunteers, and distros that ship with more recent versions of the Linux kernel might include additional features or bugfixes your hardware may need. This is specially relevant if you happen to be using a recently-released video card. These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.
Diederich 8y ago
I've been running Ubuntu on all of my desktops and laptops for many, many years. Prior to that, I ran Redhat, and prior to that, Slackware. For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers. My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards. There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.
prolepunk 8y ago
What kind of hardware did you use? You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux -- this is why everyone in this thread recommends Lenovo X1. It's more expensive than other laptops, but it is really compatible Linux hardware. Also it takes some time to get driver support into Linux kernel, so for average hardware that doesn't specifically supports Linux, I'd expect about 6 months to a year after hardware release; also for a jump in video quality -- it takes Xorg some time to get proper video support, though I saw Lenovo Yoga machines working with 4K just fine a few years ago. (Disclaimer Lenovo Yoga is not as well supported in linux as Lenovo X1 carbon) Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux, which made it a no-go for me and I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly. I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience.
- eropple 8y ago
  > I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience. Exactly. Business-class machines will generally do you just fine. My experience: most of the Lenovo T, X, and P laptops, modulo some of the tablet/Yoga features, work out of the box. I had a HP Spectre x360 13" before a Lenovo (took it back for other reasons, didn't like the keyboard) in early 2018 and it worked out of the box--and with a 4K display besides. I've used Dell's XPS 13 and XPS 15, and they worked out of the box, too. I realized last week that I at this point can safely assume that stuff is gonna just work with my machines. I plugged in a Lenovo Thunderbolt 3 dock with two monitors, headphones, Ethernet, and a bunch of USB devices and I didn't even stop to think first whether or not that it'd break. It didn't. It is predictably acceptable, today, in 2019. It's emphatically not perfect. I have complaints. But the showstoppers are gone, if you buy mainstream gear.
  - aembleton 8y ago
    Dell Latitude and Xiaomi laptops work well too.
- 8y ago
int_19h 8y ago
Thinkpads generally do better with Linux than your average PC or laptop. It's partly self-reinforcing - they have that reputation historically, so people buy them to run Linux on them, and thus problems get reported and fixed faster.

ufo 8y ago

You might have actually had an easier time on a nerdy arch or Gentoo setup. The Nouveau driver is heroically reverse-engineered by volunteers, and distros that ship with more recent versions of the Linux kernel might include additional features or bugfixes your hardware may need. This is specially relevant if you happen to be using a recently-released video card. These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.

Diederich 8y ago

I've been running Ubuntu on all of my desktops and laptops for many, many years. Prior to that, I ran Redhat, and prior to that, Slackware. For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers. My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards. There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.

prolepunk 8y ago

What kind of hardware did you use? You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux -- this is why everyone in this thread recommends Lenovo X1. It's more expensive than other laptops, but it is really compatible Linux hardware. Also it takes some time to get driver support into Linux kernel, so for average hardware that doesn't specifically supports Linux, I'd expect about 6 months to a year after hardware release; also for a jump in video quality -- it takes Xorg some time to get proper video support, though I saw Lenovo Yoga machines working with 4K just fine a few years ago. (Disclaimer Lenovo Yoga is not as well supported in linux as Lenovo X1 carbon) Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux, which made it a no-go for me and I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly. I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience.

eropple 8y ago
> I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience. Exactly. Business-class machines will generally do you just fine. My experience: most of the Lenovo T, X, and P laptops, modulo some of the tablet/Yoga features, work out of the box. I had a HP Spectre x360 13" before a Lenovo (took it back for other reasons, didn't like the keyboard) in early 2018 and it worked out of the box--and with a 4K display besides. I've used Dell's XPS 13 and XPS 15, and they worked out of the box, too. I realized last week that I at this point can safely assume that stuff is gonna just work with my machines. I plugged in a Lenovo Thunderbolt 3 dock with two monitors, headphones, Ethernet, and a bunch of USB devices and I didn't even stop to think first whether or not that it'd break. It didn't. It is predictably acceptable, today, in 2019. It's emphatically not perfect. I have complaints. But the showstoppers are gone, if you buy mainstream gear.
- aembleton 8y ago
  Dell Latitude and Xiaomi laptops work well too.
8y ago

int_19h 8y ago

Thinkpads generally do better with Linux than your average PC or laptop. It's partly self-reinforcing - they have that reputation historically, so people buy them to run Linux on them, and thus problems get reported and fixed faster.