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I used to agree with you on this, and was a Mac OS hater for years. But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wif

by borski 8y ago

I used to agree with you on this, and was a Mac OS hater for years. But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wifi drivers to work again, and switched back because I remembered just how frustrating it is to have everything feel like it’s “third world” computing.

Goronmon 8y ago
I was playing around with different versions and at one point uninstalled 2 and 3 in an attempt to fix something funky I was seeing. Apparently that was a bad idea, as removing Python also removed the Ubuntu desktop, so when I rebooted I was greeted with the command line and had to reinstall the Ubuntu desktop to get things back up and running. Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.
- eropple 8y ago
  The desktop requires Python. To uninstall a package you must uninstall its dependencies. It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned. Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.
  - Goronmon 8y ago
    I understand the mechanics, but from a usability perspective it makes no sense that you can uninstall the interface of the OS you are using just by uninstalling a language dependency.
    - eropple 8y ago
      "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. The OS doesn't/can't know what "the interface" is for you. Yours, to that box, is Xorg. My interface to all but two of my Linux boxes is SSH/zsh. Somebody else's might be SSH/bash. Changing the package management tools such that I have to do something nonstandard within my configuration management tools on the off chance that you fire a footgun is pretty lame, yeah? (Ditto the reverse. If I uninstall zsh, I expect something to break next time I try to SSH in.) Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.
      - Goronmon 8y ago
        "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. Sure you are.
        eropple 8y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm telling you that there are many interfaces and that expecting generalized tools to understand your specific use case out-of-the-box is unreasonable.
sergiosgc 8y ago
The rule with Linux and drivers is and has always been: "check hardware compatibility beforehand". There are many many Linux compatible laptops that will work out of the box with no fiddling around. It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.
eropple 8y ago
What're you running on? I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me. There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.
- bluejekyll 8y ago
  I have considered getting a Linux laptop replacement. I run Linux on multiple desktops for various reasons. I pretty much only buy desktops to run Linux, I don’t have a desktop Mac. I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought. Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.
  - eropple 8y ago
    I mean, that's totally fair. All I'm saying is that, for me and with well-supported hardware, "just works with zero thought" is where Fedora's pretty much gotten. :)
bproven 8y ago
This is not my experience with a TP Carbon X1 6th gen + Fedora 29. I have no issues... You really have to choose your hardware wisely. I have found the Thinkpads the best with Dell XPS series following.

by borski 8y ago

Goronmon 8y ago

I was playing around with different versions and at one point uninstalled 2 and 3 in an attempt to fix something funky I was seeing. Apparently that was a bad idea, as removing Python also removed the Ubuntu desktop, so when I rebooted I was greeted with the command line and had to reinstall the Ubuntu desktop to get things back up and running. Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.

eropple 8y ago
The desktop requires Python. To uninstall a package you must uninstall its dependencies. It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned. Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.
- Goronmon 8y ago
  I understand the mechanics, but from a usability perspective it makes no sense that you can uninstall the interface of the OS you are using just by uninstalling a language dependency.
  - eropple 8y ago
    "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. The OS doesn't/can't know what "the interface" is for you. Yours, to that box, is Xorg. My interface to all but two of my Linux boxes is SSH/zsh. Somebody else's might be SSH/bash. Changing the package management tools such that I have to do something nonstandard within my configuration management tools on the off chance that you fire a footgun is pretty lame, yeah? (Ditto the reverse. If I uninstall zsh, I expect something to break next time I try to SSH in.) Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.
    - Goronmon 8y ago
      "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. Sure you are.
      - eropple 8y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm telling you that there are many interfaces and that expecting generalized tools to understand your specific use case out-of-the-box is unreasonable.

sergiosgc 8y ago

The rule with Linux and drivers is and has always been: "check hardware compatibility beforehand". There are many many Linux compatible laptops that will work out of the box with no fiddling around. It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.

eropple 8y ago

What're you running on? I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me. There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.

bluejekyll 8y ago
I have considered getting a Linux laptop replacement. I run Linux on multiple desktops for various reasons. I pretty much only buy desktops to run Linux, I don’t have a desktop Mac. I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought. Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.
- eropple 8y ago
  I mean, that's totally fair. All I'm saying is that, for me and with well-supported hardware, "just works with zero thought" is where Fedora's pretty much gotten. :)

bproven 8y ago

This is not my experience with a TP Carbon X1 6th gen + Fedora 29. I have no issues... You really have to choose your hardware wisely. I have found the Thinkpads the best with Dell XPS series following.