6 ms·

One of the selling points of macs is the fact that they run macOS. Comparing other computer models purely on hardware specs doesn’t account for this.

eropple 8y ago
I used to agree with you on this, but frankly at this point unless you specifically need to write iOS software or run some particular audio/video stuff (I've got a Mac in my audio stack for Logic Pro still, but I use DaVinci Resolve for video editing and don't have much call for Photoshop anymore) a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. I went from MacOS to Fedora and haven't really looked back. I have old Macs as boxes for Logic Pro, for iOS builds, and for the occasional Photoshop work, but I don't find myself needing to carry them with me anymore. For me, and I suspect for a lot of folks, desktop Linux is probably good enough (and, for me, enjoyable in a way that MacOS used to be but isn't anymore) to be very productive and Lenovo's hardware is fantastic.
- borski 8y ago
  I used to agree with you on this, and was a Mac OS hater for years. But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wifi drivers to work again, and switched back because I remembered just how frustrating it is to have everything feel like it’s “third world” computing.
  - Goronmon 8y ago
    I was playing around with different versions and at one point uninstalled 2 and 3 in an attempt to fix something funky I was seeing. Apparently that was a bad idea, as removing Python also removed the Ubuntu desktop, so when I rebooted I was greeted with the command line and had to reinstall the Ubuntu desktop to get things back up and running. Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.
    - eropple 8y ago
      The desktop requires Python. To uninstall a package you must uninstall its dependencies. It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned. Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.
      - Goronmon 8y ago
        I understand the mechanics, but from a usability perspective it makes no sense that you can uninstall the interface of the OS you are using just by uninstalling a language dependency.
        eropple 8y ago
        "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. The OS doesn't/can't know what "the interface" is for you. Yours, to that box, is Xorg. My interface to all but two of my Linux boxes is SSH/zsh. Somebody else's might be SSH/bash. Changing the package management tools such that I have to do something nonstandard within my configuration management tools on the off chance that you fire a footgun is pretty lame, yeah? (Ditto the reverse. If I uninstall zsh, I expect something to break next time I try to SSH in.) Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.
        Goronmon 8y ago
        "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. Sure you are.
        eropple 8y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm telling you that there are many interfaces and that expecting generalized tools to understand your specific use case out-of-the-box is unreasonable.
  - sergiosgc 8y ago
    The rule with Linux and drivers is and has always been: "check hardware compatibility beforehand". There are many many Linux compatible laptops that will work out of the box with no fiddling around. It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.
  - eropple 8y ago
    What're you running on? I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me. There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.
    - bluejekyll 8y ago
      I have considered getting a Linux laptop replacement. I run Linux on multiple desktops for various reasons. I pretty much only buy desktops to run Linux, I don’t have a desktop Mac. I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought. Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.
      - eropple 8y ago
        I mean, that's totally fair. All I'm saying is that, for me and with well-supported hardware, "just works with zero thought" is where Fedora's pretty much gotten. :)
  - bproven 8y ago
    This is not my experience with a TP Carbon X1 6th gen + Fedora 29. I have no issues... You really have to choose your hardware wisely. I have found the Thinkpads the best with Dell XPS series following.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  > a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. Except work reliably without me having to waste time fiddling around with drivers and settings. A few weeks ago, I installed Ubuntu 18.04, the latest LTS version, on my desktop. So, this isn't some nerdy Arch or Gentoo setup, it is basically the most mainstream GNU/Linux-based OS you could possibly imagine. I couldn't even log in because the Nouveau driver would crash every time I tried. (Maybe they've never tested it on a 4K display? Or with my specific card? Who knows.) Also, Ctrl+Alt+FN to go to a TTY did not work, so I couldn't even fix it by installing the proprietary Nvidia drivers from there. I was able to log in by changing to a non-default desktop environment, or maybe login/display manager? I don't remember the details. Anyway, it "worked", with slideshow-tier FPS, until I installed the proprietary drivers and everything was fine. This isn't a fluke -- it is consistent with almost 15 years of experiences trying to use GNU/Linux on the desktop. Something like this has simply never happened to me when using an Apple product.
  - ufo 8y ago
    You might have actually had an easier time on a nerdy arch or Gentoo setup. The Nouveau driver is heroically reverse-engineered by volunteers, and distros that ship with more recent versions of the Linux kernel might include additional features or bugfixes your hardware may need. This is specially relevant if you happen to be using a recently-released video card. These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.
  - Diederich 8y ago
    I've been running Ubuntu on all of my desktops and laptops for many, many years. Prior to that, I ran Redhat, and prior to that, Slackware. For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers. My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards. There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.
pault 8y ago
I had to start using windows at work and with WSL it's not as bad as I expected. It took me about two weeks to get over the icky feeling and learning curve, but I've since then switched my daily driver at home to a windows PC because of the insanely great (hah) performance to price ratio. You might want to give it a try.
djtriptych 8y ago
Absolutely. But the fact that I'm even considering switching OS's indicates the seriousness of the problem.
dehrmann 8y ago
Is this really a selling point after the recent security issues?
Goronmon 8y ago
I mean, if one of your requirements for a laptop is that "It has to run macOS." then worrying about touchbars/keyboards/etc is mostly pointless since you have to buy whatever Apple is offering.
jvagner 8y ago
As others have said, this is much agreed with... however, the hardware problem is so profound as to create a lens by which the OS isn't a required element of work. My life is basically 3 browsers and Adobe CC and a code editor and a bunch of cloud file stores. I also connect to a pile of cloud Linux VMs in AWS and GCP, but I can use any decent terminal app for that. (Biggest problem for me is, access to my Photos on Windows, for personal life stuff.. but I can keep the old MacBook around for that). I know a few people who need new hardware now and would consider buying a Windows laptop now for a year until the news is that Apple has fixed their stuff. And who's to say it's that much of an issue that people won't stick with Windows even then? I'll also add: the new iMac Pros are nice, but the issues they've had with the Mac Pros make me wonder if they can even get a new notebook hardware line "right". I like having Messages on my desktop, but I also sit at my desktop with an iPad and an iPhone. When my MacBook Air dies, I'll need a machine I don't hate. Turns out, I probably hate Windows less than I hate new Apple laptop hardware.
Mikeb85 8y ago
And Lenovo laptops run Linux great. In fact, Linux runs on most laptops from all brands, just got to do a tiny bit of research to avoid the few laptops that do have parts that don't work. I've got an AMD Ryzen powered Acer with Ubuntu, it runs better than when it had Windows on it.

eropple 8y ago

I used to agree with you on this, but frankly at this point unless you specifically need to write iOS software or run some particular audio/video stuff (I've got a Mac in my audio stack for Logic Pro still, but I use DaVinci Resolve for video editing and don't have much call for Photoshop anymore) a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. I went from MacOS to Fedora and haven't really looked back. I have old Macs as boxes for Logic Pro, for iOS builds, and for the occasional Photoshop work, but I don't find myself needing to carry them with me anymore. For me, and I suspect for a lot of folks, desktop Linux is probably good enough (and, for me, enjoyable in a way that MacOS used to be but isn't anymore) to be very productive and Lenovo's hardware is fantastic.

borski 8y ago
I used to agree with you on this, and was a Mac OS hater for years. But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wifi drivers to work again, and switched back because I remembered just how frustrating it is to have everything feel like it’s “third world” computing.
- Goronmon 8y ago
  I was playing around with different versions and at one point uninstalled 2 and 3 in an attempt to fix something funky I was seeing. Apparently that was a bad idea, as removing Python also removed the Ubuntu desktop, so when I rebooted I was greeted with the command line and had to reinstall the Ubuntu desktop to get things back up and running. Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.
  - eropple 8y ago
    The desktop requires Python. To uninstall a package you must uninstall its dependencies. It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned. Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.
    - Goronmon 8y ago
      I understand the mechanics, but from a usability perspective it makes no sense that you can uninstall the interface of the OS you are using just by uninstalling a language dependency.
      - eropple 8y ago
        "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. The OS doesn't/can't know what "the interface" is for you. Yours, to that box, is Xorg. My interface to all but two of my Linux boxes is SSH/zsh. Somebody else's might be SSH/bash. Changing the package management tools such that I have to do something nonstandard within my configuration management tools on the off chance that you fire a footgun is pretty lame, yeah? (Ditto the reverse. If I uninstall zsh, I expect something to break next time I try to SSH in.) Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.
        Goronmon 8y ago
        "The interface of the OS"--what interface? I promise you I'm not being pedantic. Sure you are.
        eropple 8y ago
        No, I'm not. I'm telling you that there are many interfaces and that expecting generalized tools to understand your specific use case out-of-the-box is unreasonable.
- sergiosgc 8y ago
  The rule with Linux and drivers is and has always been: "check hardware compatibility beforehand". There are many many Linux compatible laptops that will work out of the box with no fiddling around. It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.
- eropple 8y ago
  What're you running on? I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me. There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.
  - bluejekyll 8y ago
    I have considered getting a Linux laptop replacement. I run Linux on multiple desktops for various reasons. I pretty much only buy desktops to run Linux, I don’t have a desktop Mac. I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought. Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.
    - eropple 8y ago
      I mean, that's totally fair. All I'm saying is that, for me and with well-supported hardware, "just works with zero thought" is where Fedora's pretty much gotten. :)
- bproven 8y ago
  This is not my experience with a TP Carbon X1 6th gen + Fedora 29. I have no issues... You really have to choose your hardware wisely. I have found the Thinkpads the best with Dell XPS series following.
umanwizard 8y ago
> a modern desktop Linux can do pretty much everything that a developer's likely to deeply care about. Except work reliably without me having to waste time fiddling around with drivers and settings. A few weeks ago, I installed Ubuntu 18.04, the latest LTS version, on my desktop. So, this isn't some nerdy Arch or Gentoo setup, it is basically the most mainstream GNU/Linux-based OS you could possibly imagine. I couldn't even log in because the Nouveau driver would crash every time I tried. (Maybe they've never tested it on a 4K display? Or with my specific card? Who knows.) Also, Ctrl+Alt+FN to go to a TTY did not work, so I couldn't even fix it by installing the proprietary Nvidia drivers from there. I was able to log in by changing to a non-default desktop environment, or maybe login/display manager? I don't remember the details. Anyway, it "worked", with slideshow-tier FPS, until I installed the proprietary drivers and everything was fine. This isn't a fluke -- it is consistent with almost 15 years of experiences trying to use GNU/Linux on the desktop. Something like this has simply never happened to me when using an Apple product.
- ufo 8y ago
  You might have actually had an easier time on a nerdy arch or Gentoo setup. The Nouveau driver is heroically reverse-engineered by volunteers, and distros that ship with more recent versions of the Linux kernel might include additional features or bugfixes your hardware may need. This is specially relevant if you happen to be using a recently-released video card. These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.
- Diederich 8y ago
  I've been running Ubuntu on all of my desktops and laptops for many, many years. Prior to that, I ran Redhat, and prior to that, Slackware. For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers. My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards. There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.

pault 8y ago

I had to start using windows at work and with WSL it's not as bad as I expected. It took me about two weeks to get over the icky feeling and learning curve, but I've since then switched my daily driver at home to a windows PC because of the insanely great (hah) performance to price ratio. You might want to give it a try.

djtriptych 8y ago

Absolutely. But the fact that I'm even considering switching OS's indicates the seriousness of the problem.

dehrmann 8y ago

Is this really a selling point after the recent security issues?

Goronmon 8y ago

I mean, if one of your requirements for a laptop is that "It has to run macOS." then worrying about touchbars/keyboards/etc is mostly pointless since you have to buy whatever Apple is offering.

jvagner 8y ago

As others have said, this is much agreed with... however, the hardware problem is so profound as to create a lens by which the OS isn't a required element of work. My life is basically 3 browsers and Adobe CC and a code editor and a bunch of cloud file stores. I also connect to a pile of cloud Linux VMs in AWS and GCP, but I can use any decent terminal app for that. (Biggest problem for me is, access to my Photos on Windows, for personal life stuff.. but I can keep the old MacBook around for that). I know a few people who need new hardware now and would consider buying a Windows laptop now for a year until the news is that Apple has fixed their stuff. And who's to say it's that much of an issue that people won't stick with Windows even then? I'll also add: the new iMac Pros are nice, but the issues they've had with the Mac Pros make me wonder if they can even get a new notebook hardware line "right". I like having Messages on my desktop, but I also sit at my desktop with an iPad and an iPhone. When my MacBook Air dies, I'll need a machine I don't hate. Turns out, I probably hate Windows less than I hate new Apple laptop hardware.

Mikeb85 8y ago

And Lenovo laptops run Linux great. In fact, Linux runs on most laptops from all brands, just got to do a tiny bit of research to avoid the few laptops that do have parts that don't work. I've got an AMD Ryzen powered Acer with Ubuntu, it runs better than when it had Windows on it.